Page 3 | How pressured / full on is QE boys?

poobaloo · 2023-01-05T11:01:18+00:00

Hi all, My sister is looking at her options for her DS and is considering QE. She lives in Walthamstow so not close but there is a coach apparently. Her DS is really bright, but she's not sure if a longish commute to a full on school would be a good idea. Her DS is in yr4 so she's thinking ahead re tutoring etc already. Any feedback would be helpful, thanks.

PreplexJ · 08/02/2023 22:32

No football in QE though 😅

mellicauli · 08/02/2023 22:37

No football - much to their regret, I agree.

Motherparent19 · 08/02/2023 22:40

It’s not a matter of there being no sport, it’s a question about the deterioration over time in the quality and diversity in the sports on offer.

TheyWentToSeaInASieve · 08/02/2023 23:44

www.qebarnet.co.uk/beyond-the-classroom/sports/

Motherparent19 · 08/02/2023 23:57

TheyWentToSeaInASieve · 08/02/2023 23:44

www.qebarnet.co.uk/beyond-the-classroom/sports/

I’m not sure what this is suppose to prove or disprove?

All these schools have sports and amazing grounds. However, a lack of diversity and a singular focus on academics, especially traditional subjects like maths, means a compromise in the richness of other areas. I have seen the quality of sporting endeavours and the diversity of sports decline in some schools. Their sporting glory in some areas steadily declined. Believe it or not, this is an observation shared with me by several Asian parents. At first I was surprised at their admission and did not know what to say but inwardly I understood their concerns (though I thought too that they were hypocritical). For instance one stopped his son from doing rugby and choir so that he could focus completely from year 5 on studying for his exams. His s son has gotten into all the top schools he applied for but I can assure you, he isn’t in the very top in the year 6 class.

I don’t think there is a right or wrong way for a school to be. It’s just a matter of acknowledging the downsides.

Original poster

poobaloo · 09/02/2023 16:54

mellicauli · 08/02/2023 22:31

There is a big sports culture at QE. It is one of the few state schools who play rugby with 3-4 teams for each year group. They have practice once a week after school and then play on Saturday morning, usually against private schools around London/Herts. The rugby coaching staff are mainly ex-professional players. They all go on the coach to the match and have a blast. There is a swim team who practice in the mornings, cricket, athletics and a water polo teams which I know less about.

This compares against my son at the local comp where there is no swim team. no water polo team. No serious rugby team. There is only 1 football team per year group.

At QE my son could play ping pong every lunchtime. It's once a week after school He had a gym where he could work out at lunchtime, also not available at the local comp.

My SIL who is considering this school for her son lives in Walthamstow, so her DS would need to travel by private coach. I'd be interested to see how easy / challenging accessing after-school / morning and Saturday morning sport would be for him.

OP posts:

FlawlessSquid · 10/02/2023 13:02

Motherparent19 · 08/02/2023 20:00

It isn’t an issue of meritocracy. When you go to these exams, it’s around 99% Asian so of course the intake is going to be 99% Asian. The question is why the White flight. Why is there no diversity at the exam stage?

Even Asian parents are turned off by the lack of diversity. Not just at QE but at others like it.

Also, the kids are heavily tutored. All these tuition centres are evidence of this. The demographic that makes most use of these centres is Asian. The degree of competition between Asian families means the need /pressure for all to have their kids tutored is very high.

What I think is happening is that White middle class families are sending their kids to state school because the game is changing and the top universities are now prioritising children who have high grades from local comprehensives.

Also, there is a desire for more rounded experiences, including sports. For some demographics there is a singular and one dimensional focus on academics. That can change a school’s culture. A school that was once excelling in inter-school sports can eventually move to the bottom.

"Why is there no diversity at the exam stage?" This is a very valid point. Indeed something worth to think about. Maybe these schools should do more outreach to under represented ethnic communities, to encourage more visits to school etc to gain first hand insight rather than hearing from other sources.

Stackss · 10/02/2023 17:27

I don’t think it’s rocket science why there’s no diversity at exam stage, unfortunately. This thread alone is full of complaints about how expecting DC to do a few hours of work a night is totally unreasonable and how the precious darlings are too busy with Netflix and Xbox to study hard.

Most British parents and their DC are not willing to put in the hard work required.

chocorabbit · 10/02/2023 17:34

FlawlessSquid · 10/02/2023 13:02

"Why is there no diversity at the exam stage?" This is a very valid point. Indeed something worth to think about. Maybe these schools should do more outreach to under represented ethnic communities, to encourage more visits to school etc to gain first hand insight rather than hearing from other sources.

Show quote history

A few years ago I was reading a thread on some 11+ forum (people will understand, the same where parents were mentioning their children being "culled", pupils who had got GCSEs A because QE's judgment was that they wouldn't produce all A at A-Level) about Woodford County which from what I read its pupils are also predominantly Asian. A parent who was white British said that her friends were discouraging them from sending their daughter there because "do you want to send her there with those people?". She said that this was the polite version. Then another parent answered saying that their friends had told them exactly the same. Call it "diversity" as much as you like but this is looking down on people on a breathtaking level.

chocorabbit · 10/02/2023 17:35

Stackss · 10/02/2023 17:27

I don’t think it’s rocket science why there’s no diversity at exam stage, unfortunately. This thread alone is full of complaints about how expecting DC to do a few hours of work a night is totally unreasonable and how the precious darlings are too busy with Netflix and Xbox to study hard.

Most British parents and their DC are not willing to put in the hard work required.

I disagree. That's a massive and lazy generalisation. They just don't want to mix with the "wrong" crowds.

Motherparent19 · 10/02/2023 21:15

I agree, it is a lazy generalisation and lacks the curiousity to explore why some of the schools are turning into a predominantly Asian population.

At some of the exam days we went to, it was impossible not to notice that 99% are Asian. I must confess, it wasn’t something I had thought about or expected and at that moment of realisation I concluded that my son would not fit it and if successful we would not take up the place.

I just don’t understand why there is no diversity even at the point of registering for the exams. Where are the other ethnic groups going? They are making a conscious effort to not even bother to apply for these schools.

mellicauli · 11/02/2023 00:18

I think it's all about values and different ideas in different culture of what a really successful life looks like. For my Hindu friend, her aspiration for her son was for him to become a doctor. What could be a higher calling than to spend your life healing other people?

My White UK friends seem more focused on self expression and being true to yourself, which isn't so contingent on academic excellence.

QE is perfect for the 1st vision, but could even be a hinderance to the 2nd

Original poster

poobaloo · 11/02/2023 01:21

Stackss · 10/02/2023 17:27

I don’t think it’s rocket science why there’s no diversity at exam stage, unfortunately. This thread alone is full of complaints about how expecting DC to do a few hours of work a night is totally unreasonable and how the precious darlings are too busy with Netflix and Xbox to study hard.

Most British parents and their DC are not willing to put in the hard work required.

Would you mind linking to the threads that you are referring to because I don't recall seeing any?

OP posts:

chocorabbit · 11/02/2023 08:06

As soon as the first Asian pupils arrived a few white people left, in the spirit as of the 60's/70's BBC documentaries where people in Southall/Slough were crying why they could see Indian faces in the pub. Then others followed. Now of course there is no "diversity" I am not Asian but white EU and I was deeply offended and it depressed me having watched them. Having read white people on other forums directly admitting to pressuring from their friends it cemented what people suspect. Having read so many competitive threads on mumnset education sections I refuse to believe they are all Asian people all over the country, it's just there are all different kinds of people.

dew141 · 11/02/2023 08:30

My (white) kids were in the ethnic minority at their schools (private but not far from QE). Lots of my friends (and my kids' friends) are Asian and, at the sake of over-generalising, there's two styles when it comes to parenting school-aged children. Those who have a more relaxed mindset and those who are singularly focused on the academic, rightly or wrongly.

It was particularly apparent at prep school level. I remember chatting with the head at parents' evening about the maths 'geniuses' in my son's class. Their answer was that they weren't geniuses, they'd nearly all had maths tutors from age 5-6. This was at a selective, academic school that taught maths very well.

It became quite full on at times, particularly for the teachers. One of the deputy heads told me a group of parents always emailed him to ask what the questions would be on his summer exam. Another parent paid her son money for every exam in which he got higher marks than my son.

In fairness, there's some outstanding pupils in our secondary school who work hard and get brilliant results which they fully deserve. But the level of pressure they're under from their parents is intense and it can make for an overly competitive edge to school life for the boys and the parents at times.

TimeCloud · 11/02/2023 08:53

Davepartyof3 · 08/02/2023 07:21

I know a few children there and they all work very long hours with homework. Personally I wouldn’t want that for my child and I think it encourages a mentality that working is always good rather than rhythms of rest and play. I got excellent results and went to a standard school and did very little homework outside of coursework. My teen years were spent at the cinema, going bowling, reading philosophy and poems with friends for fun. Sadly that era is gone but I certainly don’t want to make it worse by sending my sons to a school where ‘work ethic’ is king. I know so many adult friends who’ve left successful careers due to bein out. Learning the importance of rest is equally as important as learning the importance of work.

I relate to this. I don't want my dc to be my little project. I am glad that dc1 is in a school that is truly diverse as I believe this reflects our society and enables the kids to learn about each other and become tolerant and inclusive.

China for example has a super rigid eduction system and they are looking to European countries to learn about creativity and innovation. I know this as I work in R&D. I'd be horrified if my dc went to a school like QE and the associated hothousing culture.

Comprehensive schools / academies are becoming excellent options and with Oxbridge changing their entrance criteria can work out better in the end. Grammars are not the better option in all cases any longer.

Motherparent19 · 11/02/2023 09:01

dew141 · 11/02/2023 08:30

My (white) kids were in the ethnic minority at their schools (private but not far from QE). Lots of my friends (and my kids' friends) are Asian and, at the sake of over-generalising, there's two styles when it comes to parenting school-aged children. Those who have a more relaxed mindset and those who are singularly focused on the academic, rightly or wrongly.

It was particularly apparent at prep school level. I remember chatting with the head at parents' evening about the maths 'geniuses' in my son's class. Their answer was that they weren't geniuses, they'd nearly all had maths tutors from age 5-6. This was at a selective, academic school that taught maths very well.

It became quite full on at times, particularly for the teachers. One of the deputy heads told me a group of parents always emailed him to ask what the questions would be on his summer exam. Another parent paid her son money for every exam in which he got higher marks than my son.

In fairness, there's some outstanding pupils in our secondary school who work hard and get brilliant results which they fully deserve. But the level of pressure they're under from their parents is intense and it can make for an overly competitive edge to school life for the boys and the parents at times.

It is getting ridiculous. At my son’s school children are being tutored from very young. It wasn’t that way when my son started but just recently a parent who has a son in year 6 and year 2 was complaining about this and the impact it is having on her younger son.

I understand why some parents do it. If everyone is doing it and you don’t, then you worry your child will be disadvantaged. It’s a vicious cycle. The kids are the ones that are harmed by this collective behaviour.

What is also a vicious cycle is the self-perpetuating fallacy that top independent and grammar schools are adding academic value to the pupils who attend the schools. The fact of the matter is, the kids who go to these schools are generally tutored to their eyeballs, continue to be supported in addition to what the school does, and do the school achieve high results. But those high results are because of the selection of students who were tutored and had a high propensity to continue tutoring. These schools’ results are not necessarily because of any value added by these schools. That is why in the US the very top university are asking to be excluded from rankings and the debate is starting up here too. These rankings are part of the problem and they encourage a one-dimensional idea of academic success.

What we hear less about is the impact. At some of the independent schools that focus on academics, self-harm and mental health issues on account of the pressures are high. There is an emotional and psychological cost to all of this.

I have been caught up by the independent school system but trying my best to take a step back and choose the best school for my son. It’s hard not to go for the one highest ranked but I know that’s not the right/ best approach. We have to make a decision by mid-March.

Motherparent19 · 11/02/2023 09:06

@TimeCloud well put and you are so right. I suffer from this as an adult.

dew141 · 11/02/2023 09:26

Motherparent19 it may be difficult but you learn to ignore it. I'm paying a lot for my kids to go to a school I'm happy with, I'm not paying more for tutoring they don't need.

If your school teaching isn't good, or your child has a particular issue, fair enough but it's unnecessary otherwise. Their school does push them hard so having time to unwind and play sport has been much more positive on the results they've achieved than having extra tutoring.

That said, there's a hardcore group of uber-competitive parents and I think the primary school tutoring (general, not to pass an entrance exam) becomes a herd mentality of fearing they're missing out. Our prep school senior staff tried their best to discourage it but it's quite ingrained for some parents. And the endless emails to staff as to why their child didn't have the lead role in the play, wasn't picked for the cricket team, wasn't a prefect. You have to feel for the teachers. There was no shame at times!

FlawlessSquid · 11/02/2023 16:46

Motherparent19 · 11/02/2023 09:01

It is getting ridiculous. At my son’s school children are being tutored from very young. It wasn’t that way when my son started but just recently a parent who has a son in year 6 and year 2 was complaining about this and the impact it is having on her younger son.

I understand why some parents do it. If everyone is doing it and you don’t, then you worry your child will be disadvantaged. It’s a vicious cycle. The kids are the ones that are harmed by this collective behaviour.

What is also a vicious cycle is the self-perpetuating fallacy that top independent and grammar schools are adding academic value to the pupils who attend the schools. The fact of the matter is, the kids who go to these schools are generally tutored to their eyeballs, continue to be supported in addition to what the school does, and do the school achieve high results. But those high results are because of the selection of students who were tutored and had a high propensity to continue tutoring. These schools’ results are not necessarily because of any value added by these schools. That is why in the US the very top university are asking to be excluded from rankings and the debate is starting up here too. These rankings are part of the problem and they encourage a one-dimensional idea of academic success.

What we hear less about is the impact. At some of the independent schools that focus on academics, self-harm and mental health issues on account of the pressures are high. There is an emotional and psychological cost to all of this.

I have been caught up by the independent school system but trying my best to take a step back and choose the best school for my son. It’s hard not to go for the one highest ranked but I know that’s not the right/ best approach. We have to make a decision by mid-March.

Show quote history

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I've now had better understanding of why people maybe put off by QE alike. It is hard to escape if the social environment is on the highly anxious mode. Good luck with your choice & maybe at secondary age, your son could have some more input too!

mellicauli · 11/02/2023 20:37

Sorry. That's just not true. They aren't on anxious mode. These are bright, bright kids who are several years above average in their attainment. The main problem is that they find GCSEs boring because they offer no challenge.

IndeCandidate · 12/02/2023 11:13

@mellicauli or they are over tutored and main moto is score 100% n other rings doesn’t matter as much

see this , there is no such thing as special type of kids are cut for QE . Other kids at other schools are doing good too .

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-oxbridge-files-which-schools-get-the-most-pupils-in1/

jitteryquick · 12/02/2023 12:06

IndeCandidate · 12/02/2023 11:13

@mellicauli or they are over tutored and main moto is score 100% n other rings doesn’t matter as much

see this , there is no such thing as special type of kids are cut for QE . Other kids at other schools are doing good too .

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-oxbridge-files-which-schools-get-the-most-pupils-in1/

That list is really interesting! Do you have any way to see the full list of 80?

IndeCandidate · 12/02/2023 13:49

@jitteryquick one need to subscribe for full list

WombatChocolate · 12/02/2023 17:09

Something for any parent to consider, is the impact of the parent body rather than he school itself.

QE itself won’t be imposing undue pressure (clearly there will be some and high expectations…. but not unnecessarily so) - the daft pressures to work ridiculous hours etc or to give up clubs is driven by parents and can be fed through into the culture of the boys themselves. There’s some of this in most academic schools, but when it’s very widespread amongst parents and to a significant level (consider the level of prep and length of time it was fine over for most of the boys to get in at 11) then it’s worth considering if your own family attitude fits with this….or whether you will be out of step and not feel comfortable.

It is likely that the vast majority of boys who go there are extremely bright and able to thrive and do really well. If you’re concerned it might be too full-on or pressured, you might not be starting with the mindset if the majority of parents. Many actively want pressure and being full on and often think the school doesn’t do that enough…..so do it from home.

One last thing….even QE has boys who don’t get L8/9 in GCSEs or A/A* in A Levels. Their figures are of course extremely impressive, but there are a number of schools with similar great results. A very bright boy who could go to QE can get equal results in any of those other top performing schools…..which might have quite a different culture and where the grades are achieved without quite so many hours out in ….possibly one you feel more comfortable with.

Some people choose to send their boy on a long long journey each day to go to QE, meaning he almost goes past another very good school. They choose because QE scores 2% more at L7-9 GCSE or A and Astar at A Level.The other school is churning out vast numbers of top grades too.

Perhaps it’s a badge of honour for some parents to have their boy at QE - known to be the top state school, but also known for the extreme work ethic of most boys. It might be a source of pride to them that their boy works X hours at the weekend and each holiday day. But of course, that isn’t actually needed to secure top GCSE results. Many kids get top results in other schools without nearly that level of work, because in the end, GCSEs are not that high a level for very bright students.