10 GCSEs - the norm?

[ImStillMe]

DDs school expect 10 GCSEs to be taken (including 3 separate sciences).

Is this the norm now, and is 10 expected by RG universities? I took 8 in my day...

DD is predicted 7-9 in all her subjects but has a health issue which means I think 10 is a lot.

What is the process if you don't think your child can sit all 10? Her invisible illness means she presents as well but as her parent I see her fatigue etc...

Perhaps people are forgetting that what they start off doing isn’t the same as what they might actually sit.

One of the features of the very successful selective schools is that they adjust the curriculum as students go along, to maximise GPA (grade point average). So the majority might well start with 10 subjects….and that’s what parents are aware of. However, as the course progresses, some will drop a subject or even 2. The attitude is taken that it’s better to have fewer subjects (as long as there are still a good number…and 8 is perfectly acceptable, sepsecially sunce the new specifications with more content were added) at high grades than more with lower grades. So, better to have 9 subjects at all 8/9 grades than have 11 with a few 7s thrown in there.

An interesting thing is whether schools now promote this and actively encourage a bit of dropping if subjects, because it’s really in the subset interests of students or for school data and league table benefit. It’s probably a bit of both.

Lots of here are talking about what they did back in the day. It’s different now - there isn’t coursework and many subjects have 3 exams and all have at least 2. Students taking 10 subjects may well have 25 exams or more. The content has increased that needs to be revised. So whilst there is certainly benefit if breadth and GCSE level study is about breadth, you can take this too far. With 8 subjects, a student can have the breadth of languages, humanities, sciences, creative subjects and Eng and Maths. They can display breadth, but probably more important for the top students, than having 10/11/12 subjects, is actually having really top grades across the board.

In the very selective schools, able students who might get all 9s, might not be all pushed to take further maths GCSE, simply because that extra subject might take up a disporoportionate amount of work and reduce the overall GPA. Likewise, many students have a weaker subject that needs a lot of work. Schools take the view that if they drop that, lots of time is freed up to get higher grades in the rest and they will still have a brilliant range of subjects.

Indepenent schools are also not constrained by Ebacc measures. They don’t usually push a language as something that’s non-negotiable because they know that what matters for UCAS offers at top unis on top courses, is having the best GCSE profile and A Level predicted grades, to get offers, and that as long as someone has a decent amount of subjects with some academic ones, having a language and a humanity isn’t actually that important, unless those are what you want to study. Ebacc has no real meaning for individual students in terms of opening doors, and is purely something schools are judged on. So whilst a good broad education at GCSE is certainly good, and schools which previously were gaming the system with all kids of iffy subjects that were counted as ‘GCSE equivalent’ for league table purposes, needed to be stopped from doing this, a broad education can take a number of forms and doesn’t have to be really prescriptive to Ebacc levels. Independent schools have that flexibility, which state schools might not. One reason they might get better results in some cases, is that there might be more feeedom for even stronger candidates to drop their diff Inuktitut language part way through, or drop something else. Those schools have the staffing and resources to be able to timetable support sessions into the time freed up, which state schools might struggle to provide.

So, I’d say it’s difficult to give conclusive answers because in any one school, there will be students studying a wide range of numbers of GCSEs. In the past the higher the number, was seen as a badge of honour. That’s passed now, and as long as students have a good number (9 would probably be the norm) that’s p more than adequate to show their academic level.

Your first step, if you would like her to sit less GCSEs would be to talk to her form tutor, head of year, or the SENCO.

Most "bog standard" comps will be pretty unlikely to agree to a reduced timetable (which is effectively what you are asking for) for a student predicted 7+ and likely to achieve that.

If you are expecting her to attend school full time, the vast majority of schools will want her in lessons full time- It becomes really difficult to manage students for 2+ years who aren't attending lessons in certain option blocks etc. I'm sure your DD would sit quietly and study in the library, etc, but she would still need to be supervised by someone, and it can be an issue that it's being offered to her but not someone else, even if their behaviour etc is less good.

The only students I've known who have been able to do less GCSEs from the start at parental request are those with ECHPs.

If you go to the school with a viable plan and medical evidence, then they may agree to her doing less- but the plan has to be workable for the school and legal from a safeguarding PoV.

@WombatChocolate My daughter is at a highly successful and selective school and literally none of what you describe is what goes on there. Nobody is dropping subjects. Nobody is being encouraged not to do their weaker subjects. Fully 80% of the year are doing Additional Maths GCSE. Everybody is doing at least one language and lots are doing two or three. Everyone is doing at least 10 GCSEs and quite a lot are doing 11.

And back in the day when I did O Levels which had zero coursework, it was quite normal to sit 10 as far as I'm aware - definitely normal at selective schools. I did 12 and didn't find it particularly stressful. I'd probably have found coursework a lot more stressful tbh!

My daughter is at a highly successful and selective school and literally none of what you describe is what goes on there. Nobody is dropping subjects. Nobody is being encouraged not to do their weaker subjects. Fully 80% of the year are doing Additional Maths GCSE.

Same at our school. In fact, getting them to authorise my son dropping further maths was a painfully long process. Partly as it required him going down three sets and apparently I'm the only parent that's ever asked for that.

Very few pupils in our school drop to 9 (or even 10) and when they do, it's usually at the behest of the parents and pupils, not school-driven.

Interesting. Are you talking about independent or state schools?
The one I’m particularly talking about is top 20 independent. I am aware of a similar approach in other similar level independent schools. Students start with 10 subjects. Probably 1/3 end up with 11 after about half the year do further maths. However, some of these who are good at Maths, will drop a different subject and still end up with 10. Maybe 15-20% of the year group will finish with 9 and 5% with 8. Still looking at 75-80% having 10 or 11. This is a school where everyone in the 6th Form will have RG offers. Not so aware of what might be happening in state Grammars.

As I mentioned, I wonder if parents (and students) are always fully aware of what is going on. People often know the starting point if GCSE options and how many students choose, but not necessarily what they finish with.

I can only speak about the schools I know - but it is quite a few and not just one or two. However, I can see this isn’t the norm amongst all schools, and I did suggest before, I’d think state schools have less timetabling and ebacc flexibility to be making timetables bespoke to students and being able to provide alternative timetabling options for anyone dropping a subject, so that they are still getting meaningful teaching. I think it might be more widespread amongst independent schools than some might think and is probably the direction of travel, even if individual independents are not doing it at the moment.

The question is, whether you see this flexibility about subject numbers as aw weakness and something to be avoided or not. The high performing schools I’m talking about see it as a strength not a weakness. They have cohorts who will get well over 90% grades 7-9 and well over 80% grades 8-9. They use the approach to reduce the stress that doing very large numbers of subjects can cause some students as part of their well being approach., whilst still ensuring everyone has a broad curriculum. No-one would ever go below 8 (unless a really severe and ongoing medical issue) and almost all are on 9+ and as I said, about 80% on 10+ anyway. It also depends on whether you think it’s better to have a better GPA and overall profile across maybe 9 subjects than having 11 subjects with a weaker GPA and profile.

When applying to unis and to grad training schemes, no-one ever seems to be rejected because they ‘only’ have 9 subjects instead of 11. However, they might be culled in the application process because there is the odd lower grade. This, along with not creating the stress that so many content heavy subjects can cause, is the key thinking behind dumping a subject that might deliver a 7 and also impact performance in other subjects, rather than continuing with it.

DS1 did 10 last year, now doing 4 A levels. Grammar school Northern Ireland

My children's school is 9 if doing double science and 10 if doing triple. It's basically 2 English, 1 maths, 2 or 3 sciences and 4 choices.

Plus there is an option for additional maths for the top few. Probably about 20 maximum.

Interesting. Are you talking about independent or state schools?

Academically selective independent for ours. Not sure where it fares on the most recent league tables but typically within top 40.

The other local independents are also top 20-40 and I haven't heard of pupils at those schools being encouraged to drop GCSEs. Perhaps the odd child who is really struggling doing triple science but that's it. It's not a widespread tactic in the schools I know.

Mine went to a bog standard comprehensive and took 8. They didn't get top grades, but both are at uni now.

My year 10 is doing 10, I do feel it’s a lot. But it’s the only way he can do triple science (science is his best and favourite subject by far so he really wanted this). The starting point is 9, some kids get to drop MFL and just do 8, one class worth is offered to do triple science but can’t drop anything. I’d much rather he dropped a language and just did 9 but can’t be done

The school’s options presentation showed that for one of her option subjects, x% of students achievied a 7-9.

They haven't provided that data for all subjects. Is that data publicly available because I can't seem to find it?

Interesting. Are you talking about independent or state schools?

Very selective independent.

I think independent schools can offer the flexibility which state schools often can’t because of resource constraints which impact timetabling, as well as things like ebacc constraints.

In our independent, most will choose a GCSE language but there is no compulsion. All start with 3 single sciences for GCSE and Dual Award isn’t an option. They start with 10. For some, 3 sciences doesn’t work for them, so they might drop the one they don’t like/are less good at and still have 2 single sciences. This or the language is the mostly likely subject to drop, but after discussion, it is possible to drop anything apart from Maths, if it’s felt that overall this would be beneficial. It is on a case-by-case basis. The majority won’t drop anything but finish with 10 and some with 11 as at least half the year do further maths. It is available to all in the top 2 of 3 sets. Those in the bottom Maths set are likely to get grade 7/8 and not offered it.
It isn’t the case that they are strongly encouraged to drop subjects. It’s made clear that those doing well across the board and who are coping well should carry on with 10/11. However dropping a subject is always ‘out there’ and seen as something normal and nothing to be ashamed of, and actually beneficial for some…more than just a tiny minority. That info is given to parents too…as for some of them, the idea of dropping something runs counter to their intuition and first reaction. However, as it’s all about individual circumstances and discussion, some do realise that it could well be better to have 9 subjects, with perhaps 5x grade 9 and 4x grade 8, than instead having something like 3x grade 9, 4x grade 8 and 3x grade 7. It’s about the overall grade profile and gaining the highest marks in the subjects you want to do at A level, rather than having an extra, lower grade in a subject you’ll never study again. But dropping isn’t compulsory, just an option and because it has no stigma attached, it means different students might make different choices.

Hi @ImStillMe, with reference to your most recent post, I don't think the GCSE grade breakdown is available by subject by school (though stand to be corrected by other posters). However, there is nothing stopping you from asking the school to provide this.

I did this in relation to two subjects when of one of my DC was selecting GCSE options and the data was willingly provided by the relevant Heads of Department.

I took care not to ask for large amounts of data across a lot of subjects and kept the email requests very upbeat to avoid giving any impression that there might be a negative subtext (there wasn't). I think that helped ensure the prompt sharing of the relevant data.

Your thread has been overtaken somewhat by a more general discussion about GCSE 'norms' (which has been very interesting nonetheless) but I can see a number of posters have also come back with specific suggestions or points. I hope those have been helpful.

Ebacc is not necessarily a constraint at state school, but that is by the by. The question for you, OP, is whether this insistence on 10 is a hard or soft constraint at your school. Just be honest about your concerns, be polite and keep trying if need be. Assume there is more flex available than they "headline", but don't presume you'll be given it. You might have to be persistent. If you get a hard "no" I would accept it but be prepared to push again if she struggles, before it becomes a crisis. I would also encourage her towards subjects with less homework.

10 is normal. I did 10 GCSEs about 20 years ago. I'm a teacher now and some students even do 12. Not many students drop subjects unless there is an exceptional circumstance e.g. SEND, prolonged absence, serious illness etc.

Nationally, the average number taken per candidate has decreased from 8.09 to 7.78 over the last five years. Only 14.2% of kids take 10 or more, i.e. 86% of kids take 9 or fewer.
government data here

At my daughter's grammar, they all have to do 10. They need to do triple science, 2 English, 1 maths, 1 modern language and 1 humanity, so they only have 2 other choices - which are often things like art or drama. My daughter already knows she doesn't want to do science, maths or her modern language for A level, so I do find it a bit inflexible.

The grammar near me is 10 but it's a free choice after triple science,maths and English. So no requirement to take a language (this has worked in my childs favour!) And no humanity requirement although advised.

Thank you @PerpetualOptimist , yes, I have read all posts and clicked on all links and they have all been hugely helpful.

My oldest is doing 9 GCSEs. I remember doing 10 when I was at school. His school, which is a state school, told us they used to do 10 but realised kids only need 9 and they prefer them to concentrate on less and hopefully get better results. They do double science as a standard and not separate sciences and are told that this is fine even if they want to go onto a science degree which I agree with, I did the same and went on to do a science degree and had no trouble getting into university. I actually wish he could do more, because he has to do so many compulsory subjects it meant he only got 2 choices. He preferred the optional choices to the compulsory ones.

I think unis look at the average of 8 GCSEs, so 8 are enough even with Oxbridge aspirations. That's usually 2xEnglish, maths, 3 sciences, 1 foreign language, 1 humanities (like history or geography). Most children have 10 because schools require RE and they like to take 1 creative/practical subject like art, music, DT, cooking, textiles, drama or sports. But if you feel it gets too much, ask school to scrap RE and any drama/sports she might be doing. Although your dd might really enjoy a practical/creative subject to decompress, so cutting out drama, art or sports might actually make her more tired.

My dd’s grammar school expected them to do 11 or 12 GCSE’s. My dd asked to drop one of her subjects. The school refused
I think eight GCSE’s is more than enough

DS did 8, he would have done 9 if he had done separate sciences.

I also did 8.