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Secondary education

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Original poster

Missing out on School Trips

65 replies

Itsmylife2 · 17/12/2022 20:47

Any advice for a frustrated parent who's child has missed out on two school trips in a row.

The school has a ballot for each trip and my son's name was not pulled out of the hat last year or this year. He was bitterly disappointed last year and feels even worse this year. OK life isn't fair but the school could at least help even the playing field. Surely its only fair that if a few children miss out one year they are given priority on the next selection. Otherwise some unlucky children risk never going away while others get to go on all the trips.

Anyway we've taken the first step writing to the school but suspect we'll just be told its the school policy. Would very much appreciate any suggestions on how to pitch an approach to head teachers, govenors etc?

OP posts:
Penguinsaregreat · 18/12/2022 09:40

Unacceptable way of doing things.

BCBird · 18/12/2022 09:46

It would not be feasible for all pupils to go. Those of you who think this probably are not aware of the ratio of staff to pupils needed for a school trip. It very different from.ratio in classroom. Also the availability is probably set externally. If it is a y8 trip,I presume that the trip in y7 was something different? Life is not fair. I say that as someone who missed out on trips and experiences due to economic constraints when I was younger. At least now there are ways of offering support to pupils in this category.

Fleurolly · 18/12/2022 09:52

I presume that when the OP says 20 or so miss out, it's not that they take 220 out of 240, but that of those who wish to go about 20 can't.
Anyway, yes this is a rubbish way of deciding. I organise secondary school trips and we run on a 'names out of hat' basis once those with very poor behaviour are removed. However, for subsequent trips those who applied but did not get a place automatically given one (unless their behaviour has since become an issue). Where two faculties run residential trips in the same year we would also co-ordinate between us, and again give preference to those who had missed out on one.

I think it is entirely reasonable to suggest that although random allocation is a fair way to go, it needs to be slightly more sophisticated and take into account previous outcomes.

jellyjellopeea · 18/12/2022 10:47

ElegantPuma · 18/12/2022 09:05

Jeez, if I was a teacher giving up my time to organise the bloody trip, then spending day and night for several days looking after other people's children with no extra pay, no TOIL, and often not even a bottle of wine or a "thank you" from the parents I'd just stop now.

Which has got absolutely nothing to do with this situation at all has it?

icanwearwhatiwant · 18/12/2022 10:52

@ElegantPuma I think the OP in this would love to get the chance to be grateful to the teacher though. I don't disagree with your post but it's irrelevant here.

FrownedUpon · 18/12/2022 10:56

This sounds really odd. I’ve never known a school do this. Are you sure there isn’t a reason they don’t want to take him?

poetryandwine · 18/12/2022 11:00

OP,

This is an awful system to be sure. But it does matter whether over 200 students will have gone on two trips or whether the numbers are much smaller. Based on comments from PPs you need clarity on that, and we would be interested to know.

As PPs have said, it would be more fair to give those who have missed out one year priority the next. If you get nowhere with your letter, I think this is serious enough to take to the Governors. Best wishes

TizerorFizz · 18/12/2022 11:12

I believe that, as it’s part of the curriculum, all get the opportunity. The school will say they will replicate the curriculum in school but we all know that is not really possible.

There is now the issue that the Dc who have been chosen will not want to back out.

I would, however, complain. I would also look at the curriculum documents. What should Dc get? All Dc. What is their school trip policy? Look it up. I would go armed with info and explain that they cannot use a random selection policy if the trip is part of the curriculum. This point is crucial and must be part of your argument. It’s not skiing or Alton Towers! The trip matters!

poetryandwine · 18/12/2022 11:35

OP, @TizerorFizz makes good points. The more data you have, the more seriously you will be taken

marcopront · 18/12/2022 11:52

I think it is really important you talk to your son and make sure you have the correct story before you do anything else.

TeenDivided · 18/12/2022 12:01

I think that is a poor way of doing it, and 'policy' isn't a good enough reason. They need to change the policy so that those rejected for previous trips get priority.

I disagree withTizer though. At secondary these trips usually supplement the curriculum, they aren't a core part. ( I also think it is unusual to take 220/240 anywhere and wonder whether the OP is mislead as to how many actually go.)

TizerorFizz · 18/12/2022 13:22

There are some DC who won’t want to go. They will have the curriculum delivered in another way. That’s what the school are likely to say. However most people see a difference between opting out and being balloted out of a curriculum activity.

TeenDivided · 18/12/2022 13:35

TizerorFizz · 18/12/2022 13:22

There are some DC who won’t want to go. They will have the curriculum delivered in another way. That’s what the school are likely to say. However most people see a difference between opting out and being balloted out of a curriculum activity.

The trips my DD went on weren't curriculum, they were curriculum enrichment.

Unless the school then does lessons based on the trip, they are under no obligation to take everyone. The most DC's school ever took was 90/250 to Paris in y7. Most trips were around 30 only.

LolaSmiles · 18/12/2022 13:45

Is it actually 20 out of 240 that don’t get a spot, or is it that there are 240 in the year? My sons school does ballots for trip. There are 240 in the year ….. the trip has 90 spaces and maybe 40 get put on the waiting list. So in reality there are 150 kids that don’t go on the trip. It’s always sad missing out on a ballot, but as I said to my son, there will be loads of kids who don’t even get the choice to be in the ballot because they can’t afford it. It’s even tougher for them. I would be amazed if a school ran a trip with capacity for 220 out of 240 kids in a year.
This sounds more likely to me.

An optional residential is not part of the curriculum. It's difficult enough to run a residential trips to run for 60-90 pupils in terms of staffing and arranging cover staff and the workload actually arranging and running it.

An optional trip of over 200 would be a logistical nightmare.

TizerorFizz · 18/12/2022 14:09

Lots of trips do curriculum work based on the trip, eg Geography. They often do the work whilst actually there. It is difficult to replicate study of some things in the classroom. So that’s why the op needs to look at the curriculum. What does the school say pupils should get? I don’t see this as a race to the bottom. It’s a big divide between state educated and private schools though.

TizerorFizz · 18/12/2022 14:11

The other aspect of this is whether DC get trips when doing gcse study. This would be smaller groups. Could there be compromise that Dc who didn’t get onto trips in y7-9, get to do trips in y10-11?

Iamnotthe1 · 18/12/2022 14:28

Residentials are very rarely part of the base curriculum and only run as enrichment. Saying it was part of the base curriculum would mean:

  1. Everyone had to go,
  2. All payments from parents would be voluntary contributions and not a charged price,
  3. In the likely event it was cancelled because not enough parents volunteered to contribute, the same learning could take place in school.

These trips sound like enrichments and the way they are organised and run is totally different to day trips. Most secondaries do a lottery draw in order to allocate places and typically only 25%ish of the year group can go (depending on the size of the year group). Most kids don't go to one because they don't even enter the lottery.

LolaSmiles · 18/12/2022 15:01

TizerorFizz
My experience with curriculum field trips such as geography is that they are either half day/day trips for the whole year group as part of the curriculum, or they are GCSE/A Level residential field trips where the only people invited are the GCSE/A Level students on the courses.

They're not typically 200+ year 8s, leaving 20 at home and unable to access the curriculum.

OhCrumbsWhereNow · 18/12/2022 16:23

It is possible to manage large trips. DD's year has over 430 pupils, and I believe the younger years are now closer to 460 students. Her school took over 400 of them to France for 4 days in the summer.

They have a range of trips - some are guaranteed places for all that want to go (curriculum trips) and subsidy schemes to ensure everyone can go, and optional trips where they pick names out of a hat.

If they do more than one optional trip then those who don't get a place on the first one are guaranteed a place on the next one.

piedbeauty · 18/12/2022 16:41

Only 10 or 20 missing out out of 240?? Either your ds has been really unlucky or there is more going on. Talk to the teacher or HT.

Testina · 18/12/2022 23:05

Like others, I think you’ve made a mistake here. It’s really hard to imagine that a school runs a residential and takes 220/240.

Honestly you’d get 20 - simply don’t want to go, can’t go (e.g. bedwetters who don’t want to risk that), can’t afford to go…

But say it’s 100 that go. You could then say that only the other 140 names go into the hat next year. But - this is a Y8 trip. Y8 is over. So what actually is the Y9 trip? What if parents say, “hang on, Y9 is always Normandy battlefields and we prioritised Y8 residential. If we’d known Y9 would be Iceland volcanoes, we’d never have gone into the hat in Y8.”

What about Y9 starters. Do they get priority?

I expect there are actually good reasons why it gets messy to roll over priority.

I find it really hard to believe school are setting up a 220/240 residential.

beckypv · 18/12/2022 23:44

Totally agree with @Testina. It’s not simple to say if you miss out this time, your’ll get next time. People aren’t going to sign up to the 2day year 7 local camping trip if it reduces their chances at getting on the yr 8 watersports in Devon. Or it then reduces their chances to go on the year 9 trip to Spain.

inglese · 18/12/2022 23:46

TheArtfulStodger · 18/12/2022 00:30

That is actually quite shitty. The previously missed out kids should automatically get to go the next year.

This is what happens at our school afaik
Covid has put paid to these things
My son y10 has been on precisely one day trip

TizerorFizz · 19/12/2022 00:47

@Iamnotthe1
Schools cannot charge for the education received when dc are on a trip. They can charge for transport, accommodation and meals.

Optional extras or enrichment can be charged but the Government says that these must not be part of the national curriculum. So therefore the op must check. What is the trip covering?The National curriculum as described by the school in their curriculum documents, or not.

themimi · 19/12/2022 01:15

Testina · 18/12/2022 23:05

Like others, I think you’ve made a mistake here. It’s really hard to imagine that a school runs a residential and takes 220/240.

Honestly you’d get 20 - simply don’t want to go, can’t go (e.g. bedwetters who don’t want to risk that), can’t afford to go…

But say it’s 100 that go. You could then say that only the other 140 names go into the hat next year. But - this is a Y8 trip. Y8 is over. So what actually is the Y9 trip? What if parents say, “hang on, Y9 is always Normandy battlefields and we prioritised Y8 residential. If we’d known Y9 would be Iceland volcanoes, we’d never have gone into the hat in Y8.”

What about Y9 starters. Do they get priority?

I expect there are actually good reasons why it gets messy to roll over priority.

I find it really hard to believe school are setting up a 220/240 residential.

This is exactly right. School trips are a headache and complaining parents don't help. For those who say 'complain to Ofsted, I'd love to know what you think Ofsted will do!