St John’s school or Epsom College

[swappingwellies]

Hi all, we have received offers from both schools for DD sixth form. I was wondering if anyone could give insight on any differences between the two schools, as they seem to be very similar, I was hoping the differences would help in our decision!
I’m particularly interested in the difference between A level results; Epsom performs slightly better whereas they are almost on par for GCSEs. What could be the difference for the A level’s grade dipping for St John’s?
Thanks 🙏

From what I read when results came out, St John's did better than Epsom at A level this year. I think in previous years that may have been reversed but St John's seemed to get a good number of A*'s and A's now.

As to differences - it's difficult to say. A friend's child is at St John's and they are very happy with it. He did really well at GCSE (came from a state school at primary). Lots of activities, sport and nice community feel from what I hear. Think boarding is more flexi - maybe more full boarding at Epsom?

@Brimp oh thats great to know, thank you for sharing. I’ll go back and look at the league tables. I know a school is so much more than league tables but it really is coming down to the wire trying to distinguish the schools and make a decision. DD loved both schools when we went to visit! I do love the recurring comments about pastoral care at St John’s but I’m sure it’s just as good in Epsom. Happy to hear your friends son is thriving academically and happy, I suppose you can’t get better than that!

You could look at the value added score / progress score which is available on the DfE website. Epsom College has a progress score of +0.38 (top 1% in the country), whereas St John's has a Sixth Form progress score of -0.04 (average). That means a child at St John's will receive A-Level results exactly as expected given their GCSE performance, whereas a child entering Epsom College is expected to outperform by almost half a grade given their previous performance.

Other than that, they are very similar schools. It looks like St John's only has 130 kids per year in the Sixth Form vs Epsom around 180. DD is at Epsom College and very happy there but she is only in y7 so probably not much help to you! For us, the main deciding factor was diversity as Epsom College seemed a bit more international, especially due to the influx of boarders but also in general. St John's is a bit more English I think although the difference might well be tiny.

Maybe you should dig into the details of subjects your child will actually study at A-Level.

@swgeek do you have a link for the value added or any advice on how to find it? Not looking at these 2 schools, but interested more generally.

@QuiteAJourney sure - it is normally much more straight forward on the DfE website and you can rank schools by this measure etc, but at the moment due to Covid somehow they have disabled those sort of "league table" features which I guess makes sense, so you have to look it up for each individual school you are interested in.
You need to go to
https://www.find-school-performance-data.service.gov.uk/
which is the Government DfE data service. You can then click on find a school by "Name" and type in the name. Then you click search.
Then you need to click on "16 to 18" which is the Sixth Form data.
Then you click on "advanced level qualification" and then "A-levels".
This shows you the number of students that have taken A-Levels at this school in the recent round of data and their progress score, which is calculated by comparing A-level results taking into account prior achievement at GCSE.

I think even in 6th form there is all day Saturday school? May be wrong though!
Not sure if that's the case at St John's?

@swgeek thank you for this, I’ve just had a look. Really informative and valuable stats!
DD is not too bothered by the Saturday school- although it does have me concerned! I wonder whether this extra contact time probably does very well for vale added score! I do like the fact that Epsom is a little more diverse. St John’s have done well with the notion that it’s a very ‘kind school’. Children care deeply about one another and teachers are also very kind (this was in the recent ISI report). It’s good to know your DD is happy at Epsom. Would you say Epsom could be similarly described as ‘kind’?

@11plusdoneanddusted the Saturday school is from Yr 9 onwards and is structured as classes until about 12/1pm followed by afternoon games.

@swgeek many thanks 🙏

My SDD is at St Johns and will be joining 6th form next year. It's a great school, she's really happy there.

@bobisbored thats great to know. Does she know if she will be taking more science related A levels or humanities? Does the school offer good teaching across all departments/disciplines? I’ve heard humanities is strong in St John’s and Epsom excels in science related subjects.

As a private school teacher (not at either of these 2 schools I must add). I find the in depth analysis of progress etc a red herring. Some schools get stronger A level results because they only allow pupils with the highest GCSEs to take the Aa level in the first place. Others allow anyone to take their A level of choice, as they are paying. This means their results look worse. the value added doesn’t work at the moment because so many pupils took A levels based on inflated gcse results. As an A level teacher this has meant I have been teaching pupils that should never have taken my subject as they just are not strong enough, even though they all got 8s and 9s.

@MrsPuddle thats a good point you make. Epsom has a higher entry requirement threshold for A level science subjects than St John’s.

My DC has just finished at St John's having moved there for sixth form. It was a great experience and vastly better than the previous school. I don't know about Epsom but can't speak highly enough about our experience at St John's.

@GU24Mum thank you for sharing, it’s honestly so good to hear first hand experience of schools. I can fully appreciate how St John’s will be a wholesome academic experience. The school tour certainly got this particular point across very well. If you don’t mind me asking, (or you could pm) did your DC get their first choice university? (if they chose university as next step)

@swappingwellies - very happy to pm you!

She is taking English and psychology but undecided on the third. She's on a sports scholarship so did consider that route but I think she's decided against it.

Thank you @bobisbored DD also looking at psychology at St John’s and from what I’ve read it seems to be based in a strong department and a popular a level subject.

In terms of sports, how does St John’s rank in comparison to Epsom college and KGS? DD is sporty but by no means competitive sporty; she happily gets involved in hockey, football but not driven by getting trophy at the end of it!

If you are going for sixth form the sport often becomes optional at this age, ie they have to do something on a wed pm but otherwise the hockey teams are full of county/ club level players from across the sixth form. So it depends how many sports scholarships the schools have offered to get good dc into their teams for the sixth form. I know dd from Surbiton High who went to KGS and St John's on hockey scholarships. Does your dd want general afternoon sport or does she already play at a high level?

thank you @sailingsunshine she's coming in from abroad and in an international school. She currently plays for the school's girl football team.

She might do better at Epsom College which is more international and with the full boarding culture. Has she visited them as KGS is different having the sports field in Thames Ditton and no Saturday school?

Also if you go through the sports in the what's on sections for each school you can see that only KGS has a girls football team with only a few fixtures, the other 2 schools don't seem to list a team. Surbiton High is a leading girls football school in the U.K. but the players in the 6th form are club level.

I would also ask each school how many girls joined the 6th form this September and if any came from abroad.

You can pm me if you want, my ds got offers from all 3 schools but went to an all boys school and I have a 6th form aged dd at another school.

If you’re concerned about the culture at Epsom you should read their December 2021 report where they failed on their pastoral. There is misogyny, racism and bullying mentioned there. Oddly enough no mention of it on their website and what they’re doing about it. They have a new head now so worth checking what’s changed. I’d be concerned to send my dog there having read it. Please read all of it. It’s quite shocking.

Thank you for sharing. It was quite confusing as some parents in the school (on a different thread) had dismissed the report. It's certainly worth the time to read the entire report. I find it quite confusing that the December 2021 report cited failures of pastoral, yet the school still won Independent school of the year 2022. Just goes to show accolades can be misleading.