Advice for A level choices please

[BaconAndAvocado]

DS2 is in Year 11 and will have to start thinking about his A level choices.
Something he said he might want to do is to be a Computer Software Engineer.

Does anyone know which degree this would mean (I’m thinking Computer Science?) and which A levels he would require?

I am not sure you need Computer Science A level but a good Maths grade is important.

In terms of A Levels maths would be a definite. Further maths if he likes maths. Computer Science if the school/sixth form offers it (many don't).

Computer Science is the obviously choice of degree, but there are other tech type degrees on offer. If he likes maths (and took further maths) a Maths degree would also be a good way in.

My DS has a Software Engineer apprenticeship and did Maths, Physics, Geography A Levels and AS Computer Science. Actually your DC might like to consider an apprenticeship as well if he's still set on being a Software Engineer in a couple of years time.

Thank you for the swift replies.

Does anyone know which are the best universities to study Computer Science type degrees at?

This is useful: www.theuniguide.co.uk/advice/a-level-choices

As is this: www.computerworld.com/article/3620655/the-best-uk-universities-for-computer-science-and-it-degrees.html

Ah thanks Figgyroller that looks really helpful 🙂

YY to previous posters - 15yo DC1 is thinking about Computer Science for university (that or music). The most common requirement for the places she likes is for maths. Some universities also require further maths if available, or another science (which could be computer science or FM). She's not yet seen one that requires computer science. She's chosen Maths, FM, Spanish and Music for A-levels next year.

@BaconAndAvocado My DC is doing computer science at a top ranking university.

Maths and further maths are a must for CS. Even though they cannot ask for further maths as not all sixth forms offer it, the vast majority of those applying will have further maths. For A levels you have to love it as it will usually make up 50% of your timetable. It is usually a 4th A level as in its own right it isn't a full A level if you are also doing maths. DC would also recommend taking CS at A level. He did it for both GCSE and A level. This means part of your first year degree is easier as you already have the basic knowledge down.

I think this thread on student room sums up the not so different courses of CS and Software Engineering. DC is a coder but still chose CS as felt it had wider application in the real world.

www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=4833248

Plus this is the listing for top ranking unis for computer science

www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings/computer-science

And a bit of general advice, entry grades are just that, the lowest they will take applicants in on. That means if they are asking A⃰ AA the vast majority of them will have 3 x A⃰ at least, then 2 x A⃰ . This is for oversubscribed universities who can pick and choose who they take. The higher grades they get at GCSE the better they will do at A level. Maths in particular is one where a 7 at GCSE will probably see you with a C at A level because they are missing large chunks of baseline knowledge to build on. They can get higher but it requires a some serious effort on the child's behalf.

If you haven't already looked, research how much maintenance loan your child will get based on household income and then look at accommodation costs. I think Warwick Uni showcases accommodation costs really well, easy to see cost from low to high. Just so you know the financial side of things. Some uni accommodation is cheaper whereas others can be very expensive.

warwick.ac.uk/services/accommodation/studentaccommodation/undergraduate/ugresidences

And good luck to your year 11. Almost makes me nostalgic, but not quite

Most of the senior dev ops and software techs I come across did not do computing at university, most of them did humanities degrees and taught themselves/learned online the software and computing skills.

Rather than work with labels/job titles, what would he like to do?

@DogInATent - as a self-taught coder, I agree

but I think things will be different for the next generation. First, there is much more education in coding available now. Second, kids benefit from learning to code in a more formal framework and can then do better than the hacked-together code that I write.

I agree with posters above that Maths is definitely the most useful subject.

Good point @parietal, but at the same time being successful and reaching the top level in a career in this area will almost certainly require a strong extracurricular interest in the subject. Those same senior devops I know all spend a lot of their own time coding (or doing other very techie/maker things) recreationally as well as for the day job.

Just to put something different on the table, the new T-level in Digital Production, Design and Development has a very interesting looking syllabus (www.tlevels.gov.uk/students/subjects/digital-production-design-development) and includes a placement.

Software development is very much a career where having demonstrable achievement/strong portfolio will beat academic certificates.

In terms of uni, if he wants to go that route I would look for a city with a strong software/tech community outside the academic environment. For example, Bristol ranks well for computer science and has a strong tech/software/maker community based around established community hubs.

OP, you haven't said what grades your DS is expecting.
For maths A level he will need to be at least a solid 7, and to do FM he'll generally need to be a solid 8.

Good advice here OP esp from @MaggiesMiddleToe . However I want to disagree with this:
FM in its own right it isn't a full A level if you are also doing maths

More and more schools actually allow or even encourage just three A levels inc maths and FM, to try to ease the massive workload of four A levels. Yes, a lot of DC still do four inc FM, but it is still very much an A level. I recall a poster on another thread adducing examples when it would not be counted by unis, but IIRC they were specifically for medicine when the only sciences offered were maths and FM. If you want to study maths or comp sci then FM is a very good idea.

Mate of Ds's is at Bath doing maths (so pretty competitive course) with 3 A levels: Maths Fm and PE. I recall him telling me that FM was ferociously hard. Better not tell him that it's not a full A level.

@clary I am just going on what Ds said about fm. It would seem a lot of state schools only offer 3 A levels, if they offer a 4th then it is usually further maths and I believe it is to do with funding. Private schools don't have the funding issue and a lot of them do 4 A levels as standard with the option to drop one after year 12. Ds didn't do an EPQ because of the 4 A levels. Ds says further maths builds on maths. At my son's sixth form they do the content for maths A level in year 12 and the further maths in year 13. That way if anyone is struggling they switch into the slower paced maths A level course. Around 1/3 of the class did this. Now this is anecdotal but when you go in with a grade 7 which is the required grade for fm at my son's sixth form you are missing a lot of base level knowledge. That is why some students struggle right from the off. If they do struggle and they have only got 3 A levels, that then drops them down to 2 A levels. I also agree that medicine is the only subject that doesn't want 3 A levels with maths and fm, I think it is to do with breadth.

I think there is a difference with people who are "good at maths" as to how they do it. I am sure the question has been asked on here why some kids are good at the UK maths challenge but not that great when sitting maths GCSEs and vice versa. Ds "plays" with maths. The best example I can give of this is that we are all taught to apply a formula to solve the area of a triangle, half times base times height. Ds understands why that works, because he looked it up, along with lots of other maths concepts. Sorry to say but Ds found further maths A level relatively easy. Scored high 90%s on every test/exam. However, he found English Lit GCSE incredibly hard and got his lowest grade of a lone 7 in it in a sea of 9s. But for someone else that would be a walk in the park.

I was trying to reassure the OP that 4 A levels may not feel like a huge workload. After all lots of private schools do it, there are free periods, Ds had 6 hours of frees in the week, plus a whole Wednesday afternoon once enrichment had finished. Pretty much all his homework was completed in his frees and he peer taught maths to friends in the frees too. Ds currently has 26 hours of contact time at uni for computer science.

@MaggiesMiddleToe if you struggle with any of your A Levels and drop one you will be left with only 2 ... that's not specific to Further Maths. I'd argue that if you weren't taking 4 in the first place, you would be more likely not to struggle as you have more time to concentrate on them!

I suspect most students taking FM are the ones who intuitively "get" maths. And will find it "easy". I'd go so far as to suggest you probably shouldn't take it unless you really like maths and found GCSE easy.

In terms of workloads my DD is taking 3 A Levels plus EPQ, goes in an hour early and often works an hour later than the school day and still needs to work at home. I don't think students should rely on being able to complete all their homework in free periods. Although I agree if you "get" maths it may be a subject with comparatively smaller workload.

@MaggiesMiddleToe You DS's school is setting them to fail by letting them start FM with a 7, so no wonder they are insisting on starting with 4.

It's a long time ago now, but when I was doing my A-levels maths was compressed into L6 and further maths was compressed into U6.
L6 - 2 subjects plus maths plus GS
U6 - 2 subjects plus further maths plus GS

Different schools take different approaches though. The disadvantage of the compressed L6 route is that it's a very short academic year before the summer exams roll around, so you've only really got 2/3rds of a year to cover the full 2-year syllabus.

You need a strong aptitude for maths to take further maths. I changed school at sixth form and despite top grades in GCSE maths and extension paper I struggled. My peers at sixth form that were sitting FM had been heavily coached in maths all the way through GCSE and had already covered some of the A-level material. The two of us that transferred in both dropped out of the further maths at U6 to re-sit and improve our maths grade.

I would confirm with a the universities he's potentially interested in that offer CS whether they actually need FM. I'd take as a starting point the subjects that he enjoys most and is most likely to get a top grade in. And when looking at universities for CS, bear in mind that some courses will be almost pure-CS and others will be more applied-CS.

@sheepdogdelight anyone doing essay based courses of course has a different workload to other subjects. Also the EPQ is a new thing for them and takes time. Ds had already done computer science GCSE so that was an easy subject for him as he already had a base knowledge plus extra stuff outside of college because that was his chosen subject for degree. With maths he achieved a high 9 and in my house maths is done for fun. My two sons even did maths puzzles on holiday!

I completely agree with you @TeenDivided that the entry grade is too low for further maths. The sixth form is outstanding, they push individuals to achieve their best. Entry in is 5 grade 4 GCSEs. Grade 6 if you are continuing a science, same for maths, 7 for fm. However, not everyone is heading for uni. Around 70% of them from there do go but they don't want to stop children choosing what they want within reason.

@DogInATent top unis for computer science want fm. It just helps. I know there are specific elements which Ds has said he used. Ds started looking early at uni and every course said FM is desirable. That has pretty much disappeared now but the course remains the same. Some CS courses are maths heavy. It is who you are up against application wise. There are statistics that you can find that break down how many students have FM who did A levels who were offered a place. Scottish Highest don't have a FM but I am not sure what their maths covers. We looked at the when D's was applying.

The OP's son can speak to admissions at whatever uni they are looking at and ask that question.

Re maths in year 12, D's sat AS maths paper before Christmas so they had covered all of it. The pace was set by the ability of the class. They get 2 weeks study leave in May one of which is half term. They started FM content at the end of year 12. Ds2 is in year 12 and they are definitely going slower to ensure they catch knowledge gaps due to lockdown learning.

FM for computing degrees is not a must. It is just that the technically-minded students usually prefer another maths subject rather than history or chemistry, that is why they do it. There is not much in FM A level syllabus that can help them at the uni. Linear algebra and discrete maths that are taught as part of CS degrees are not in FM.

@MaggiesMiddleToe I've looked at several CS degree entry criteria, and the standard offer seems to be pretty consistent as A*AA with Maths, but FM only gets a mention within an alternative offer based on AAA. @NotQuiteHere neatly summarises every discussion on the subject I can find.

But... it's all largely moot discussion to the OP without knowing predicted grades and whether A-Level - CS degree is the optimal pathway for her son. I know A-level to degree is the aspirational pathway and the MN commandment is that no other educational route shall be considered, but there are strong vocational routes into this career.

@DogInATent I agree there are other ways into CS however there are far more degree places available than apprenticeships. I have friends who work in IT who say they want applicants with degrees because you might be an incredible coder but you have to understand what impact your coding has on the system as a whole. I personally am not in IT so I don't know more than what I am told.

I know we don't know the GCSE level of the OP's child but for top universities which my Ds applied to they wanted further maths. I can only comment on those because that is what he looked at. Statistically what I can tell you is that because of freedom of information requests Cambridge (quick google for the stats) and other universities list out who they accept on what grade profiles. For 2019 cycle Cambridge had for CS

759 applications from A level students of which 619 of them or 81.6% had fm. They made 81 offers or 98.8% of them to the students with fm. Now Cambridge unlike the others has an entrance exam so there is that test of maths too. I used to have the stats for other unis but didn't keep them, but we looked at the whole fm element before Ds was looking at sixth forms to make sure he chose a sixth form with fm. This is about who you are up against applying for the same course.

Ds says about fm and uni (his words) matrices weren't covered in regular maths and they used those a lot in first year. Also calculus which is covered but fm has advanced calculus and experience of this helps. If the degree course covers AI, they'll be doing some fairly advanced multi-variate calculus and without that extra experience you'll have to think about it so much more. He says whilst fm isn't essential why make life hard for yourself, you won't be drowning at Uni learning all the pre-requisites to the content you're doing.

Some CS degrees may have hardware as well as software options, physics might be useful for them.

As another ancient pretty much self taught coder (my chemistry degree in the 80s included a course of Fortran ... on cards), something else youngsters who like writing software may want to consider is if they might be interested in specific types of application. If someone wants to write scientific software then the essential is a strong knowledge of the science (usually postgrad level) - the coding is the easy part. This may not be at all relevant to the OPs DS but it's worth being aware of.

Thanks all.
DS is predicted an 8 for Maths.
He’s not sure which grammar he’s going to choose ( his current school only offers the IB which may not be suitable for him) but they both require 5 6s to be admitted and a 7 to study Maths. He already has a 7 in Statistics which he got in Year 10.
His Maths teacher has given him the choice of doing FM. He’s in the top set in his Maths class but probably operating near the bottom.

My brother went into a software engineer job after doing a maths degree.

But ... the thing that actually got him the job is that he'd just done a load of coding, including some freelance work in his spare time from his mid-teens. A computer science degree generally has a lot of theory. Practical skills will also be looked for.

Would like to add that Cambridge is not the only uni which has an admissions test for CS.

Oxford has the MAT and Imperial has their own admissions test for Computing. All three also do interviews (mix of maths/logic/pseudocode).

FM is not required for most unis, but for the most competitive ones, it pretty much is, even if they don't specifically state it on the website.