Anyone having second thoughts on applying for the super selective 11+ independent girls schools?

[Roopachoo]

Are things changing at these schools? At all the open days we are always met by a newly enhanced wellbeing/pastoral team.

Whilst great to see, I wonder how effective they can be with dealing with issues that by their very nature, are extremely hard to detect. And when a school is driven to maintain ridiculously high grades - will mental health always be sacrificed?

We are in north London so particularly interested to hear how things are at NLCS and Habs Girls (amongst others). I asked a few sixth-formers (at open days over the last few weeks) how they felt: some were surprisingly candid, and one answered ‘we have become very good at hiding things’. :-(

DD has a music place at Dame Alice Owen’s (if we name it first), but she wants to sit the others. The very early offer is confusing me (I would love to stop ghastly 11+ right now), but also I don’t want an early offer to throw us off our original plan! But my worries about the pressure-cooker environment are making me wonder if the early Owen’s offer is a great get-out-jail card.

Hi, no idea about Habs as we are in West London but it may be interesting for you to know that even though we live on the doorstep of G&L and SPGS (10 minute journey) we were strongly encouraged by our school to apply for NLCS (55 minute journey) and that was purely down to our school's perception of its pastoral care (perhaps based on feedback from past students, but I'm guessing).

> my worries about the pressure-cooker environment

We are thinking of spgs but wondering if we should apply to GL and choose that instead. Reading some of the posts here some parent from spgs speak highly of it. I worry about mental health, etc. Wonder if we should go to an average school academically and have 'happier' children.

Clever kids will rise to the top academically wherever they are, will enjoy learning and be a joy to teach but only if they’re happy. Also live within a 10-15 minute walk of SPGS/G&L/LU and am genuinely thinking of opting out and heading for rounded state education, with advantage of kids friends being local, and the fortunate position of being able to supplement extra curriculars as needed.

What you think sixth form girls are only now 'hiding things'?
I can't comment on the schools you mention as I don't know them. My daughter is at sixth form at a selective sixth form in London and I'm sure there are girls there that struggle with the pressure, but from what she says it's usually from the family, not the school. Of course the school wants them to do well, but it's the family expectations that really weigh on the girls.

I very much agree with Monday to Sunday. When it comes to pressure it is invariably not com8ng from the schhol itself! Parents are absolutely the worst for this!

At a recent open day for one of the very academic north London girls schools, the head was gushing over the pastoral support in their speech.

On our tour with a current pupil my husband asked what were the negatives or bad points of the school. Poor girl replied that the pastoral care was awful. She had asked for help and was basically told to man up and get on with it. She had decided to not stay on for sixth form. Not sure why a young girl would make that up.

I think most of it comes from families. But these schools aren’t right for everyone, just pick somewhere that’s academically solid but not a screaming hot house if you think that’s better for your daughter.

Don't let these schools fool you about caring for their students. You either cope or you will be asked to leave. That's it.

Yes there are slightly better arrangements but selective schools don't want any kind of liability imposed on them re mental health. They will put that on parents to handle.

@BookwormButNoTime Just like the sixth-former I spoke to.

Maybe it is us, the families. We want our cake and to eat it. We would all love a top school for our girls and the super results that come with it, and that is always going to come at a cost. Some schools maybe slighter better than others at handling it, but I suspect the top league table schools can’t help but be a pressure cooker.

The atmosphere at some of these schools is exactly what some parents want though. They are only interested in traditionally academic subjects, league tables, university destinations and how many children go onto study medicine, engineering and law. If your child is not constantly working and achieving then they are classed as lazy. The pressure and the school “product” that supports this is dictated by the parents. The customer.

It would be foolish to assume that all super selective schools are the same though. Some do actually support girls very well and are happy, thriving places where girls are very busy doing other stuff outside academics. Parents really should focus on the school of best fit. If your gut is saying it’s not the right place then that should come before results and league tables.

We turned down a place at a super academic school for DC1 and opted for a school many see as a “backup” choice. One parent told me I was mad. A few years in and my child is flying. Has a busy life full of sport and a scholarship in a creative subject. They are ridiculously happy and love school. Plus they are on track for 8s and 9s at GCSE. We 100% made the right choice.

I would go for the good state option over the super-hothouse independent. The more I see of the very pushy elite private schools, the less I like their system and the less co convinced I am by the “product”!

If you have a good state option why wouldn’t you take it?

It's not the schools, it's a) some of the parents , who are ludicrously pushy (thin one mother who told her child they'd have to retake any GCSE with less than an 8) and b) the cohort within the schools that produces issues - this can be either good or bad depending on your child. I have two dc at a very elite London school, both work extremely hard because they're naturally driven and competitive (and intellectually curious). One can cope with it fine, though she does get tired, the other is overwhelmed imo - but she also has mh issues exacerbated by the pandemic. The school itself is extremely supportive and sympathetic with anything to do with mh. I have friends with dc at less high-achieving schools tearing their hair out because their dc are doing no work at all.

we took an active decision several years ago to opt out of this even though people thought we were mad. We took the decision to go for good state and much less selective co-eds for all the reasons you state.

I feel very strongly that a school full of high achieving alpha females can be incredibly damaging and I see the evidence in front of me with so many of my friend's children and my children's friends. Have been through that system myself and it's not something I would be prepared to put my kids through. I think that it's less so with the boys schools but highly selective girls schools, not in a million years.

OP my eldest is through school now. He had a fantastic co-ed state education at a very good comprehensive. He had peers who were also extremely academic but those who struggled too and guess what? His grades and his university destination are identical to those of his habs / City / UCS / NLCS peers.

We've gone less selective pastoral and co-ed (youngest is at private for various reasons) and outcomes are looking pretty identical with a bit more understanding that everything is not a competition and that sound mental health and support is more important than an extra A grade

Was that Helen Lowe making that recommendation? She clearly had some personal issue with G&L, so was just curious 🙂

I had second thoughts re: SPGS two years ago. DD is there in second year and absolutely loves it. From what I can tell, the "pressure" largely comes from parents incessantly monitoring and measuring their kids' performance. That said, I think intelligent DC's can do very well in all types of schools, so no need to overthink it. You know your DC best, do what you feel most comfortable with.

No, this was not Helen Lowe and was specifically about NLCS being considered "softer pastorally" than SPGS and G&L. They were not saying the pastoral care is thought to be lacking at SPGS and G&L, just less soft.

Ah, understood 👌TA

Are you in north London @BookwormButNoTime ? Very curious to know which school you went for! Something to be said for listening to your gut, and your DC is thriving because of that decision.

Our ‘back up’ indie is becoming increasingly attractive too- still does very well but doesn’t have that cut-throat vibe.

@bjmin I hear you and so pleased it’s working out for your DD- but even highly intelligent children can be miserable and feel stressed! We know of 2 extremely bright girls at the super selective N London girls’ school near us- they suffer with terrible anxiety and panic attacks. Seemingly they should have nothing to worry about, but they are consumed by worry.

DD at the moment doesn’t seem a worrier - but how do you know how they will be until they get to the high-achieving school? For some it will be clear early on in primary that such a school won’t be a good fit. It all seems such a gamble.

@Codfishermen in hindsight can you say that the difference in how both your DC are handing the pressure at this school, was apparent in their respective personalities before they went there?

@Roopachoo It won’t let me send you a PM to let you know the school in question…..

@Dynamicdinosaur and @LizziesTwin , I think the rabbit hole we all go down with the independents is all the co-curricular opportunities on offer that a great state school just won’t have the resources to fund. Saying that, our state option has a fantastic co-curriculum, it’s just not as frilly.

It’s a shame that an environment full of high achieving alpha females seems to inevitably become a toxic one. But as @BookwormButNoTime , if this is what many parents want, it’s a losing battle despite whatever well-intentioned pastoral teams do.

Oh no! Wonder why. Let me check my settings.

I am also curious and still considering schools please dm me.