Title edited by MNHQ at request of OP - Updated: School being annoying about languages - what to do?

[EverythingSortsEventually]

Warning: Apologies, this turned into a bit of a rant and got a bit long.

I’m getting very annoyed at DC school about their approach to languages. DC just gone into Y9 and started their school this year.

We lived in Germany for 10 years. DC was aged 3-13. Let’s just say they have a pretty decent grasp of German, despite it technically being a 2nd language, having lived around the language for 10 years and gone to the German equivalent of English state school. I’d go as far as saying that I actually think my childs German is better than their English. Although it’s borderline.

So their England secondary school teaches French and German. They were put into the French and German lessons. Fine. I have no problem with this. DC actually went to the English lessons in their German school. Despite speaking English at home it helped their English especially in terms of grammar which native speakers usually miss out on. Plus, allowed DC to use English in a context which wasn’t just with the family. Let’s just say, by the age of 13, most of the kids in the school had a grasp of English which would mean they could hold basic everyday conversations abut simple things and survive in English if they had to as they have a good foundation. I would say to about A2/Low B1 on the language scale. The school also were good at teaching foreign languages and allowed DC to use/develop more complex English in the lessons. Pushing DC up to the top class even allowing DC to have some English classes with a higher year group when the lessons aligned. So I haven’t a problem with DC being in German lessons as they will get the grammar parts they don’t get as a ‘native’ speaker and it keeps the German ticking over.

However, school have put DC in the bottom set for both French and German. Right, ok. I can understand the reasoning in that they have no knowledge of language abilities and sets can change. But, DC is fluent in German. Alright, I can cope with bottom set French, that’s something that can sort itself out with setting later on, but German! Really?

I’ve spoken countless times to the school about this and so has DC. I explained how it worked for English in Germany and whether there was a possibility of doing the same here.

They have 2 German lessons a fortnight. I understand there are timetabling issues regarding going into a Y10/Y11 class or even a sixth form class (although I know fine well, from what DC has said, there is at least one Y10 class scheduled for the same time as their German class and one sixth form class at the same time as their other German class so I don’t understand why DC can’t just go to those classes instead).

I was then given some rubbish about following the ‘correct curriculum progression’. I honestly don’t care about whether they follow the ‘correct curriculum progression’ for German. They have used the language spontaneously and flexibly for 10 years of their life. They use German every day anyways in a non ‘correct curriculum progression’ way when speaking/texting/WhatsApping their German friends. DC still hears German at home because I do speak to my German friends in German and so does DH. Its not like they are going to forget it overnight or can’t use the correct German for the correct situation.
It won’t be that hard for them to go into the GCSE German class for a term before the GCSE exams and learn the format of the papers.

So I have asked whether DC can, at the very least, be moved to the Y9 top set. The answer was no, as they have no previous record of language skills they had to put DC on bottom set.

Fine. I organised a meeting with the German teacher and the head of German. We had a conversation about my DC in German! My DC spoke in fluent German to the German teacher and the head of German throughout explaining why they wanted to go into the higher sets! My DC had been doing some googling and actually took an ALevel German paper with them and showed the teachers they could understand it and answer the questions. How much more evidence do they need of language ability!? But no, they have to be set properly like the rest of the school. I mean come on! This is really doing my head in. The Y9 bottom set are doing no more than still trying to remember how to say who they are, where they live and the contents of their pencil cases - definitely not even on the language scales never mind A1. DC is making the most of this class and trying to help others and has said that some of their friends have liked them being in the class and DC can see how much they have helped them but it really isn’t helping DC and they are getting bored. The top set are a lot further along and are at least learning about grammar and trying to have basic daily conversations so probably around the A1/low A2 level. This is what DC wants to be doing. Having conversations at the very least and doesn’t mind if it’s a bit dodgy or they have to help others.

I’m debating asking the school whether it’s even worth DC doing German and whether there’s something else they can be doing. (Although I don’t really want to, I think keeping up with German, however rubbish it is/whatever solution we find is no bad thing).

I just don’t get it! Why can’t the school not just use common sense? How can I make them listen?

Tl:dr?

I think you've done your best and should now either accept this or change to a different school for GCSE. Your DC being in an appropriate set is obviously not a priority for this school.

We recently moved back to the UK from Germany, and my Year 9 DC has been put in bottom set German despite being fluent in the language. School insists not other options.

I do feel sorry for your DC though. I went to primary at nearly 5 able to read fluently. Did school care? Noooo. I ended up smuggling in books to read. I used to sit on them to hide them from the teacher!

I am now a teacher, with a primary age child too and sometimes can't believe how crap aspects of my primary education were...

Is it worth all this angst?

A similar thing happened with my DD when she was home educated for a year, she left the school in the top sets and when she got back (same school, year 10) they put her into the bottom sets (not foreign languages). She texted me from one of her English classes rolling her eyes at being taught what an adverb was. It took ages to move her up again, and she never quite reached the top other than in science when they finally put her into the top sets a month before her exams, though she did get all 7s, 8s and 9s in her GCSEs from middling sets.

It seems mad that they won't move your son up. Can you make a formal complaint?

They should definitely be moving your DC to top set or otherwise providing for them so that they can extend their knowledge of German.

I suspect that maybe top set is "full" and as they think your DC will do brilliantly in German anyway, and they don't want to pull another pupil down a set, they've decided to sacrifice your child's right to be doing something productive in that lesson.

There may also be other cases of children's parents wanting them to move and the school not wanting to open the floodgates. At my most cynical I'm wondering if they're wanting your child to be some sort of additional helper in the class!

At the very very least they should be provided with work appropriate to their level - and conversation opportunities too - no matter what class they're physically sitting in. If the school continues to insist there are no other options, if you don't want to move school then at least insist that the work is appropriately differentiated and they get to follow their own German "curriculum" within the class.

Seems bizarre to have students in classes well below their capabilities & getting bored. Education is supposed to be for learning not stagnation 🤷‍♀️

Bi-lingual students at DCs school don't attend lessons at all - they just prepare for GCSE at home (and generally sit early).
Even top set is likely to be beneath his abilities. You might be better asking if he can choose a different option.

I had a friend in school who's mother is French. Friend spoke fluent French bit failed her O Level French (I'm going back a bit) because she had no grasp of French grammar, how to do a good translation etc.

I had a similar type situation when I was in school 30+ years ago. I was born in Germany and lived there until I was 9, when we moved to Wales, where I was expected to learn Welsh. I sat at the back and ignored the teacher basically, I wasn’t interested and had no intention of picking Welsh for GCSE. I brought my own books and made huge progress in my English reading comprehension and learnt no Welsh 😁

None of that helps you, schools are sometimes inflexible unfortunately. I would suggest trying to sort out some way he can use the time to improve his English maybe? If he can’t join another class, could the English teacher set extra work for him that he can do on his own in the German lesson?

This is why when we moved back to England we chose a private school. We came back from Ukraine. (Nothing to do with the war this was a few years back!)
DC1 and DC2 has learned Russian and Latin at school as well as being fluent in English and Ukrainian. After assessing the state schools in the area we were going to, none could offer the same languages and investigation into the languages taught (or not taught as DS2 was primary level) and how they were taught just completely put us off. Only place that could teach languages properly and also managed to match up the same languages was a private school. Although that brings its own challenges.

Have they given you a timetable for re-setting? It’s not even the half-term of their first term at school … this is a ‘it will get sorted soon’ problem, isn’t it?

Meantime, chill.

Oh God, how infuriating.

They're probably worried your DC is going to embarrass the teacher by speaking German better than them.

I'd get a tutor, get the tutor to set appropriate work, and inform the school that my child will be doing said work during classtime.

We are told in the is case at secondary schools, the children usually just sit in the class and do sperate work for their ability and to prepare to take the GCSE language exam early. There are two schools we are looking at that have special tutors for bilingual kids that sit with them and help them prepare. My dd attends a bilingual school and is taught completely in two different languages so one week is French and the other week English. So when she transfers to an English only school, I have had to find out what will happen...

It's a long time ago - I am 65 now - but the only person in our German class who failed German O Level was the child who had lived in Germany for 10 years and was fluent! Being fluent in speaking a language is not the same thing as being literate in the language - just have a look around the UK for evidence of that! If your child shows performance at a higher level they will be re-assessed and moved up. I would suggest that you focus on making sure that happens rather than trying to change the here and now. It shouldn't take that long if they are as capable as you suggest.

I suspect that maybe top set is "full" and as they think your DC will do brilliantly in German anyway, and they don't want to pull another pupil down a set, they've decided to sacrifice your child's right to be doing something productive in that lesson.

I think the same.

For PPs mentioning bilingual children failing in the past, I think that's more about academic ability. I went to a school with lots of children from Italian families. The ones in the top and middle sets for other subjects did very well. The ones in lower sets didn't because generally they were from families who spoke a lot of Italian slang and passed on their own incorrect vocabulary to their children.

It must be worrying but they will be fine. They will pass all their exams with flying colours regardless of what set they are in. Just don’t give yourself and your children the stress of worrying about it.

God that’s arrogant. If your time is too precious and you can’t be bothered to read the thread, then don’t bother commenting on it!

I'd ask if they could either
A) spend the time working on GCSE german independently to allow them to sit the exam this summer
B) use the time to instead work on any "gaps" they have in any other key subject due to being in a different education system.

Hardly worth wasting a post on.

This is awful! Can you take it higher? The right to education is a human right. www.unesco.org/en/education/right-education/state-obligations-responsibilities

Having said that, is he in bottom sets across the board and do you think he should be? Because it can be hard to place a child whose ability isn’t consistent but I wonder if you would get better results if you fight his setting for all subjects. Bottom sets usually are for children with SEN or behavioural issues.

The other option you have, if you think his other sets are fine, is to speak to the exams officer and see if they can put him in for GCSE German as a private candidate (which means the headteacher etc wouldn’t be the gatekeepers but not all schools offer this) and progress him to A-level next year then his German set will be irrelevant. If they don’t accept entries from private candidates you can ring around other schools and find one that does and put him in that way. It costs a couple of hundred quid for the exams and the invigilators.

God the irony. 🤣🤣🤣

Tbh I'd consider whether you can move him to a school with a better "culture".

As a teacher I've worked in a school where they wouldn't have moved your son (the school and it's management were appalling) and ones where you wouldn't have needed a meeting - he would have been whisked into an a level group following a brief conversation with you both (they were good schools).

If you want to work with/challenge them I'd write to them, copying in the governor's and LA if it isn't an academy asking how they plan to meet your child's educational needs as clearly they aren't at present

That is annoying. We have a lot of bilingual families at our school and those kids are in the top sets. My dd was in top set Spanish because we lived overseas in a Spanish speaking country.

Unfortunately our school dropped German gcse which is what my younger dd wanted to study, so we are paying for her to study online at the Goethe Institute. She also practises with dh who is a native German speaker.