Title edited by MNHQ at request of OP - Updated: School being annoying about languages - what to do?

[EverythingSortsEventually]

Warning: Apologies, this turned into a bit of a rant and got a bit long.

I’m getting very annoyed at DC school about their approach to languages. DC just gone into Y9 and started their school this year.

We lived in Germany for 10 years. DC was aged 3-13. Let’s just say they have a pretty decent grasp of German, despite it technically being a 2nd language, having lived around the language for 10 years and gone to the German equivalent of English state school. I’d go as far as saying that I actually think my childs German is better than their English. Although it’s borderline.

So their England secondary school teaches French and German. They were put into the French and German lessons. Fine. I have no problem with this. DC actually went to the English lessons in their German school. Despite speaking English at home it helped their English especially in terms of grammar which native speakers usually miss out on. Plus, allowed DC to use English in a context which wasn’t just with the family. Let’s just say, by the age of 13, most of the kids in the school had a grasp of English which would mean they could hold basic everyday conversations abut simple things and survive in English if they had to as they have a good foundation. I would say to about A2/Low B1 on the language scale. The school also were good at teaching foreign languages and allowed DC to use/develop more complex English in the lessons. Pushing DC up to the top class even allowing DC to have some English classes with a higher year group when the lessons aligned. So I haven’t a problem with DC being in German lessons as they will get the grammar parts they don’t get as a ‘native’ speaker and it keeps the German ticking over.

However, school have put DC in the bottom set for both French and German. Right, ok. I can understand the reasoning in that they have no knowledge of language abilities and sets can change. But, DC is fluent in German. Alright, I can cope with bottom set French, that’s something that can sort itself out with setting later on, but German! Really?

I’ve spoken countless times to the school about this and so has DC. I explained how it worked for English in Germany and whether there was a possibility of doing the same here.

They have 2 German lessons a fortnight. I understand there are timetabling issues regarding going into a Y10/Y11 class or even a sixth form class (although I know fine well, from what DC has said, there is at least one Y10 class scheduled for the same time as their German class and one sixth form class at the same time as their other German class so I don’t understand why DC can’t just go to those classes instead).

I was then given some rubbish about following the ‘correct curriculum progression’. I honestly don’t care about whether they follow the ‘correct curriculum progression’ for German. They have used the language spontaneously and flexibly for 10 years of their life. They use German every day anyways in a non ‘correct curriculum progression’ way when speaking/texting/WhatsApping their German friends. DC still hears German at home because I do speak to my German friends in German and so does DH. Its not like they are going to forget it overnight or can’t use the correct German for the correct situation.
It won’t be that hard for them to go into the GCSE German class for a term before the GCSE exams and learn the format of the papers.

So I have asked whether DC can, at the very least, be moved to the Y9 top set. The answer was no, as they have no previous record of language skills they had to put DC on bottom set.

Fine. I organised a meeting with the German teacher and the head of German. We had a conversation about my DC in German! My DC spoke in fluent German to the German teacher and the head of German throughout explaining why they wanted to go into the higher sets! My DC had been doing some googling and actually took an ALevel German paper with them and showed the teachers they could understand it and answer the questions. How much more evidence do they need of language ability!? But no, they have to be set properly like the rest of the school. I mean come on! This is really doing my head in. The Y9 bottom set are doing no more than still trying to remember how to say who they are, where they live and the contents of their pencil cases - definitely not even on the language scales never mind A1. DC is making the most of this class and trying to help others and has said that some of their friends have liked them being in the class and DC can see how much they have helped them but it really isn’t helping DC and they are getting bored. The top set are a lot further along and are at least learning about grammar and trying to have basic daily conversations so probably around the A1/low A2 level. This is what DC wants to be doing. Having conversations at the very least and doesn’t mind if it’s a bit dodgy or they have to help others.

I’m debating asking the school whether it’s even worth DC doing German and whether there’s something else they can be doing. (Although I don’t really want to, I think keeping up with German, however rubbish it is/whatever solution we find is no bad thing).

I just don’t get it! Why can’t the school not just use common sense? How can I make them listen?

This seems ridiculous. I would make a complaint to Head, cc in HofD who you spoke to, and if nothing comes of it, Governors.

Thanks all, I didn’t expect this many comments, especially as my questions turned into a rant. Very interesting reading some of them. This situation really is maddening. It’s also really saddening to hear our experience is a common occurrence.

I’m going to have a good read of all the comments again and make some notes of the suggestions as well as having a good think about all other comments. This is all really brilliant. Thank you so much. No doubt I will have a thousand more questions afterwards.

For a little bit of clearing up commonly mentioned themes;

GCSE
I’m very aware kids who are bilingual/know another language fluently can still fail the GCSE. This is why I’m keen for DC to go to the German lessons and gain the grammar knowledge. Although, the German grammar knowledge DC has is pretty good. (They actually teach grammar in school in Germany). But brushing up on it won’t harm them.
I just wish they would actually teach this at an appropriate level. As I mentioned. The bottom set aren’t doing this, they are still struggling with the basics. But the top set are doing this and it’s the top set who are likely to continue with the language and have an interest, not the bottom set, many of whome just don’t care/want to learn German.

SETTING
Across the board DC was placed bottom for everything on starting. All sets have now changed with the exception of languages.

After 2 weeks the English teacher spoke to DC/me explaining that DC would be better moving to a different set as their knowledge of the grammar and structure of the English language was well above what they expect for a Y9 but there are somethings, such as extended writing and literature analysis, which DC was missing (obviously because DC has been in a different education system and never had to do extended writing or analysis of literature in English). DC was properly assessed and placed into set 2 of 6. A compromise between their language and literature abilities.

Maths and sciences have also spoke to DC and myself about setting and they have been moved up to the correct sets. Again set 1/2/3 of 6 depending on subject.

It just seems to be the language department we have problems with.

I think I might try and take it higher and see what answers I get.

To the language teachers - this is what I expected of all language teachers. It’s great to hear there are some people who will make the extra effort. Your schools are obviously some of the good ones. Well done to you.

There is no excuse that is valid enough for them to refuse to move your son up to an appropriate set. They are not meeting your son's needs in this subject. If I'm being completely honest, it sounds of he is being used to support others in that lower set and the school is banking on him passing without needing appropriate lessons before GCSE.

I’m an MFL teacher and we deal with native speakers all the time. We would immediately move them to the top set after realising their level. The school is being ridiculous

Are the top set and bottom set lessons on at the same time?

It could be a logistical issue they are trying to defend with curriculum reasons.

Learn a different language - go into Spanish or Latin or Mandarin, or whatever they offer.

Enter German GCSE independently (either get a tutor, or do the Goethe prep course, or just do some GCSE past papers yourself). Read German books, watch German TV online, keep in practice that way. There is probably a Samstagschule for German families somewhere nearby, which you might both enjoy (the classes are often aimed at younger kids but there are also often social events and exam prep classes).

They're probably worried your DC is going to embarrass the teacher by speaking German better than them.

Absolutely this.

Privately prepare your dc for German GCSE.

I would guess that the way the timetabling is done, students are in a "language" set and so it has to be the same for both languages. They probably all do languages in the same timetable slots, but each set will be doing German in a different slot to the others. They probably set mainly on the basis of French, if that's the school's "first" foreign language or if the school starts at year 9 (since most will have done French before). So if your son hasn't done French previously, that's the problem.

If he's not planning on French GCSE, and he's reasonably bright, then it might work better for him to be in the top language set, and accept that he will be floundering/working on his own from an easier book in French.
If the school gets everyone to do French GCSE (mine did, German was an option), then either he'll have to do it, or they'll have to let him off - and that may not be possible because there is no other subject running in that timetable slot, so he'd end up with one fewer GCSE. That might be a reason to stay in a group which works better for his French. Maybe some tuition to help him catch his French up?

Timetabling can be a pain. I taught in a school where the timetabling meant that if you were in the top half for maths, you had to be in the top half for English. That didn't work well for pupils who came in from abroad (and were often very good at maths) - the compromise ended up that they went into the top set for maths, and there was extra E2L support in the lowest English set in the top half.

They are being ridiculous. It may be that they can't be in top set German whilst being in bottom set French due to the timetabling. If so suggest they drop one so they are at least set appropriately for one. Look into doing the German GCSE in year 10 so that they don't need to select it as an option.

For all the people saying 'change schools', do you live in areas where there are loads of schools with vacancies at various year groups? Where I am all the schools are over PAN, its not that easy to just up and change

For OPs child, I would be encouraging them to engage with the German teacher in the class completely in German, not speak a word of English during the lessons. It will show just how ridiculous it is.

I discovered that not all private schools are great at languages, even those that claim to have many language options. I was born in Russia and grew up in Germany, so speak both fluently, but at an open day at Highgate two years ago I tried to speak to the German and Russian teachers in German and they weren't actually that fluent in either language 😬Maybe it was bad luck and the teachers changed.

Anyway, OP - it would drive me absolutely insane!! Can you get outside prep for GSCE German for her?

in German and Russian*

As a primary teacher I do find it surprising. Why on earth am I differentiating every maths lesson 6 or more ways so every single child is making progress from their very specific starting point, yet a secondary school can get away with this shite? If I was observed not challenging a fluent speaker in a primary French lesson I'd be absolutely ripped to shreds! Lesson would immediately be RI at best.

I’d remove your DC from the German class entirely. Find a tutor, study for GCSE privately and then concentrate on what they need in order to attend a German Uni. Unless they want to specialise in languages and need the A level. So many more online classes and resources available now.
I’ve been learning German for years and the standard of a GCSE is pitifully low anyway.

Can recommend Grammatik Aktiv books for grammar revision.

Look, it's not worth getting in a flap about.

Was fluent German and literally told I was on track for a D. Needless to say I got an A

They just probably don't know how to deal with your DC

Thats very pre September 2019
Differentiation is out
QFT, adaptation and adjustment now

No-one judges lessons and gives a grade surely? Against what criteria to be RI? Ofsted dont judge lessons so how can their grading system of RI be used?

Can you ask if your Dc can take the German GCSE at the end of year 9? Find out what board they do, and look at past papers - you can find mark schemes and grade boundaries online so you could work out what kind of grade your DC would get. That would free up an option for Year 10 onwards if they already have their German GCSE.
Do be aware though that your DC's written German might not be as good as their spoken German and their comprehension. I have occasionally been told I am getting a 'bilingual' student who can certainly jabber away and understand everything I say but they have no idea how to use grammar or spell except phonetically. Not saying that's the case for your DC but do be prepared to listen to what they have to say. I had a parent getting cross because I was constantly assessing their 'bilingual' child as a 6 because their writing brought down their overall grade - they couldn't even spell the equivalent of 'I have' correctly because they wrote everything as they heard it. I worked with that child for 3 years and in the end she got her Grade 9 at the end of year 9 - she never would have been able to do that thee years previously.

This seems completely nuts. If their reasoning is that he needs to be assessed to see what set he should be in, when is their plan for doing that, and why couldn't they do it as soon as he started? Surely it should be completely obvious that a pupil who until now had been educated entirely in German will be fluent in german?

Have they put him in bottom set for all other lessons op? If not, and they've accepted that he's, say top set maths, middle set English, what's the difference between that and german?

I would ask if ds can switch to a completely different subject rather than wasting his time there, and still take German gcse, even if you have to pay for it privately. Sounds like he would easily be able to pass it without any, or bare minimum of effort.

I teach mixed age classes so QFT isn't sufficient - we have just been Ofsteded and children are expected to be on different tasks within the same lesson. The internal lesson obs might not be 'officially' graded but essentially that is what we'd be getting told. It would be absolutely unacceptable for a fluent child to be doing the same as beginners in the language.

They are expected to have adaptations to be able to access the same curriculum, that is not the same as historic differentiation (ie dumbing down)

I think this is really semantics. I support children to access a learning objective at different levels. A fluent French speaker would not show progress in a lesson if they did the same task as beginners and that would be unacceptable.

I’d like to thank everyone who has contributed. (And apologies for the rant, thanks for letting me have it, it’s really helped)
I’ve had a good read through everything again and we have come up with a plan with the aim of trying to resolve this by half term (or at least have an action plan by half term and review later)

1. Ask the head of department when resetting is likely to be. I have asked previously with no perfect answer. It was along the lines of, ‘when the exams take place which are usually at the end of the school year’. That’s a long time in a class well below my DC ability. Will push for a firm answer and if it’s soon ie after half term or after Christmas then wait it out. If not then we work our way down the list until we get a result.
2. Ask whether it links to setting in other subjects. If it does link then we need to have the conversations about what other options are available by working down the list.
3. Ask about differentiated work. Will see if DC can start working on GCSE content on their own in the class with the aim to sit the exam early (or even Y11 so will drop German at the end of Y9)
4. Taking books made for German native speakers of the same age into the class to work through. This will allow DC to work through the german curriculum for the german equivalent of English lessons.
5. Taking a book into the lesson written in German just to read and investigate options outside of school such as tutoring.
6. Using the time to work on other subjects and investigate tutoring outside of school.
7. Not to attend german lessons and what options are available eg, are there other lessons they could go to, work on other subjects in the library or something while getting a German tutor outside of school.
8. Take it to the head of key stage
9. Take it to head
10. Take it to the governors

Other points which were made

• keeping in mind EBacc and school results when having the conversations and asking whether the GCSE can be taken in Y11 if it has to be. Yes, this is very good point and will keep this in mind.
• private school, this isn’t an option
• Changing school, we would rather not as we prefer a local school and it was the only one with spaces. The next nearest with spaces is 20 miles away. However, I’m debating looking into other schools if, and only if, we get nowhere with this.
• Is it worth bothering about? Probably not in the grand scheme of things, but yes, to us it is worth bothering about. My child is entitled to an education as much as everyone else’s.

Will post an update when we have a resolution. Let’s see how this week goes. I have hope.

If it does come to moving schools, I only know what I've read on here, but if you identified a suitable local school that WOULD support his German / general language learning appropriately, that provision would be I believe be something you could use as the basis of an appeal for a place.

I'm making the mumsnet sin of not reading the full thread. But having read your plan of action, I wanted to ask if your school does regular in-year assessments? My DD school does an assessment for every subject every half term - partly as revision for the student, and partly for the progress against targets / reports / sets. Resetting is done termly.

If there are assessments, I'd ask as stage 2 if your DC could take the final year 8 assessment. That will give the school a proper indication of ability.

A similar situation happened to my then Year 9 niece with French . Her parents simply put her in for a GCSE separately through a local college and she got an A*, she will be sitting her A Level French as a Year 11 next year.

There's not a lot the school can do about it when you wave a GCSE A* at them.