DH wants DC to reconsider A Level choices.

[NameChangeyForThis]

DS got his results today. We are all very pleased, but DH wants DS to reconsider his A'level choices. Although it is ultimately up to DS, DH usually is quite influential on him. Just asking here for advice.

His A'level choices are:

Maths (got 9 at GCSE)
Chemistry (got 9)
Music (got 9)
Philosophy and Ethics (got 8 for RS)

RS was actually one of DS's strongest subjects but he came out of the exam saying it was a stinker and there was a high scoring question on there they hadn't even covered. Of course, he is happy with an 8 after the exam.

My DH thinks my DS can end up at a very good Uni. All his other GCSE's were 9's. His Ad Maths was an A. My DH is now saying that if maths is his thing, perhaps he should be doing A'level Further Maths, even though he doesn't want to do maths at degree level. This would make his A'levels; Maths, Further Maths, Chemistry and Music. My DH also thinks that since RS was one of, if not his strongest subject, he feels uneasy that at A'level he could end up with good marks in Maths and Chemistry, but on the day, if the Philosophy exam is a stinker then he could end up with a grade that stops him getting into a good Uni.

I know that an 8 is a very good mark, and this is a first world problem, and I feel a twat for asking. However, before my DH steamrolls my DS into changing, I thought I would ask MN for opinions as there are some well informed people on here.

They are his choice, not his father's. I have sympathy with parents who try to steer their DC away from A level subjects that are not considered academic by the top universities, (e.g. Media Studies) But all of the subjects he's considering are valid options. You DH needs to stand back and allow him to make his own adult choices. Advise, but not enforce.

DS dropped Maths at A level - didn't even start Further Maths iirc, and was still allowed into Oxford to do a science based degree. They said his lack of maths could be a problem, but he promised to sit in on all statistics classes at school and take extra statistics lessons when he got to uni to cover the shortfall. Might not be ideal, but didn't hold him back.

Hi @NameChangeyForThis, as you say it is great your DS has very broad ranging talents and interests - just makes choices more complicated! Some info and thoughts:

FM is recognised as an A-level in its own right; there are few courses/unis where it is 'penalised' and then only if taken as a third subject eg medicine, some courses at LSE

FM can unlock offers/lower offers in subjects other than Maths eg economics, CS, chemical engineering and chemistry eg Uni of York's very good chem department looks as though it lowers its offer for DS's mix from AAA to AAB; Uni of Bath chem goes from AAB to ABB

DS's current choice of 4 A-levels are very content heavy as well as demanding. He may wish/need to drop to 3 and so may ultimately be looking to jettison Music (if Phil & Ethics finds more favour with him)

By contrast, FM is - for the right student - in some ways an easier 4th subject because it integrates with Maths; @poetryandwine has previously flagged the importance of ensuring three decent A level grades over four and the leverage, in the right context, that FM can give in a wide range of 'maths adjacent' courses

Having said all the above, even Maths is a big step up for high performing Maths GCSE students as previous analysis flagged by @noblegiraffe which showed that (for one cohort and one exam board) 1 in 5 students attaining a 9 at GCSE and subsequently taking Maths A level did not achieve an A or above

So, in summary, it is DS taking his A levels, not your DH, you, his teachers, me or anyone else; 'love of subject' is a really important driver to motivation and ultimate success; if DS is 'meh' about Maths, he will need to deploy his reserve power to ensure Maths goes really well, let alone FM.

On the other hand, if he enjoys his Maths (particularly those aspects really developed at higher levels eg algebra), FM should not be dismissed as 'only for future maths grads' and this may a useful 4th subject along side, say, Chem, Maths and Phil & Ethics (which appears to have been his initial choice!).

We had a similar issue with DH thinking DD should re-think her A level subjects, and advised her to see a careers advisor. DD got 8s and 9s in every subject so I feel she could do anything. She has chosen 2 portfolio/art type subjects and media studies. She got a 9 for art, 8 for graphics and 9 for media studies.
She did consider English which (if I'm completely honest) I thought might be more balanced than 2 art subjects but it has to be her choice. I think she did waver but then said how important the holiday homework was which of course she hasn't done for English.
She got 9s for all 3 sciences and maths but doesn't enjoy any of them. The head teacher had already tried to persuade her to do a maths or science subject and DD is adamant she doesn't want to (she finds science really hard)
Neither DH or I went to uni, DH left school at 15 so we aren't really in a position to advise but going to speak to the IL who have got older children and we both value their advice.

Hi, OP -

A lot of good advice here. ((BTW I did a long stint as a Russell Group STEM admissions tutor.) Of course I agree that the choice needs to belong to your DS.

As @PerpetualOptimist says, although the 4th AL may earn you a lower offer, it is never worth the risk of overwork or performing badly. The musician PP and perhaps others have pointed out that even with the experience and talent your DS has (earning a top grade at) the Music AL is a surprisingly tall order. IMO two problem based and two intense essay based ALs is very demanding and may become a source of stress.

Given the musical talents and interests of your DS, I wonder whether it might make sense for him to swap the Music AL for an EPQ? He could have more fun with that, and it will develop a different skill set very useful for uni. On a thread here a little while back, the OP said her DD’s selective school had surveyed unis and they preferred the EPQ. If you have questions you can contact admissions tutors directly.

Finally, Chemistry is a wonderful Choice. If your DS isn’t keen on Maths it might well be best. But I agree with @TizerorFizz that anyone thinking about Chemistry should also investigate Chemical Engineering. The differences in job opportunities, remuneration, etc as well as the essentials of the work could send him either way. Maybe don’t let your DH in on this!

FM is by a distance the most difficult a level, I'd only ever recommend it with a view to studying a degree in which FM is at least advisory.

I agree with everyone that FM sounds not right for him. He is obviously an extremely talented musician and so unlike others I say he should keep music A level as he will love it and probably find it easy. I think his combination sounds great. Big overlaps between maths and music (which non-musicians don’t appreciate), philosophy and music, philosophy and maths, maths and chemistry.

My only suggestion is whether he might be interested in a technical musical career. If so show him the tonnmeister course at Surrey - an incredible way of getting into professional music - if he is interested in that he needs maths physics and music. No exceptions. In which case I would swap chemistry for physics.
www.surrey.ac.uk/undergraduate/music-and-sound-recording-tonmeister

list of alumni from this course doing amazing things in music
iosr.surrey.ac.uk/tonmeister/alumni.php

Of course they do! The OP's son is a high achiever with two Grade 8 instruments plus outstanding GCSE's. He could be Oxbridge or top uni material and if he's capable of doing 4 he absolutely should!

My brother did 5 A'levels (6 including General Studies). He got A is them all and got into Oxford and Harvard. Why should her son limit himself to 3 A'Levels if he's capable.

Let your DS decide.
Also P&E == RS; it’s likely to be well considered for a University place -shows a breadth of approach.

My dd changed her degree subject based on her AS level results. She got 100% in one subject, and of course her teachers and sixth form tutor were thrilled for her and made a big thing of it.

So basically she thought she'd better do this subject because she was obviously better at it (in her favoured subject she got a grade lower than she and her teacher expected).

She deeply regretted it. She got a first, but she didn't enjoy studying it at all, and it didn't really give her the same kind of 'in' into the careers she'd have chosen.

She's had to settle, basically. Now in her mid 30s she's in a job she does well, but it's far from what she wanted, and she's still regretful.

Dd just finished her A Levels. She was an 8/9 student at GCSE. She did History, Psychology and RS.

Whilst RS and Philosophy are different, there’s a lot of crossover. Dd found RS by far the easiest of her subjects and got an A* without a huge amount of effort. There’s not so much content so I think if you’re bright and can write essays it’s a good option.

The grade boundaries are very high but dd thought she’d had a stinker of a second exam and still got the A*. She enjoyed the lessons and subject matter and I think it balanced out the other two which involved lots of learning content. So, as a counter balance to your ds’ other subjects I’d say Philosophy is ideal.

Your son has done brilliantly and worked hard.

Because of this he now has lots of options and life choices.

If he continues to do well he will continue to have great options in life.

Allow him the reward of his labours ie to be able to choose and follow his interests.

Your DH is being OTT.

BTW for practical purposes I am a research mathematician, and when I was in Admissions we got a surprising number of applications to my subject with Music ALs. I very much appreciate @Delphigirl ’s comment about the connection between Music and Maths.

My concern is with the cognitive load of two intense essay based ALs on top of the Maths he doesn’t love plus his primary subject. I think he is likely better placed for a Music EPQ than one in Philosophy, but the latter is also a possibility.

His subject choices don’t seem to be heading anywhere. It is always helpful to try to focus on what degree he would like to do and work back from there, if possible.

I also think it’s all very well saying let him decide but you really do not want to close down areas of future study because he doesn’t look at careers or what universities will require for some subjects. Not doing Physics closes lots of doors. Music keeps music open but nothing else. An essay subject is not a bad idea but it needs thought so it complements his science subjects.

Back in the day we had Arts and Science strands in 6th form. This was done to focus on career and talents. With some crossover of course but not three wholly different areas of study at A level.

I'm pretty sure DS isn't going to go into medicine. He has never shown an interest in this. DH has worked backwards on certain Uni admissions websites and he says Maths and Science, plus one other (not usually specified) does offer him choices. The school agree with this. Physics would have been good, but he says it is his least favourite science and doesn't want to do it. He may be interested in engineering in the future, but I have never seen him show any interest in this so far.

The only career my DS has shown an interest in so far, is working in law. He had talks with a couple of lawyer colleagues of my DH, and they advised him to do a good degree, then do the LLB rather than do a degree in law. If you ask my DS today, he says he wants to do a degree in Chemistry, but that may change if he doesn't enjoy the A'level.

I spoke to my DH last night and apparently he had a chat with my DS about considering changing his options. My DS said he had already thought about it, but decided that the 4 A'levels he has chosen are his passion, and he doesn't want to change them. He enjoys maths, and wants to do the A'level, but doesn't want to do FM. This is the right decision. My DH is actually a very nice man and a great dad. The problem is that he has a very successful career himself, but got there despite his education, not because of it. He actually has a lot of people working for him who went to Oxbridge and he seems to think that going to a good Uni is the be all and end all. For me it is not. I can see that my DC works really hard, and has a lot of hobbies. Although he seems to have a high tolerance level, I am conscious of him being overwhelmed. It's like a game of Buckeroo. He is doing 4 A'levels and has a P/T job. I don't want any more stress on him.

Someone asked about the Further Maths GCSE. Not sure if you are referring to Advance Maths, which you have to be invited to at his school. He did this alongside his GCSE's and got an A (not graded 1-9). The students I work with who did Ad Maths, then A'level maths all said that the first year of A'level was basically going over a lot of the Ad Maths done in year 11.

Part time job is a great thing in itself and will go on his UCAS application, if memory serves. But I stand by my statement that this is a hell of a workload, now known to be even more, and you say DS feels pressure? Please keep thinking.

Agree that given your further info Chem Eng is less likely to suit him. I had been wondering about Physics, silently, but only from that perspective.

We often see on this Board that fathers who believe that they made mistakes in their own early lives, and have become successful, are the ones with the strongest opinions about what their own DC should do. IMO their early experiences and the work they put into overcoming them may have created their ambition and their drive. DC who succumb to parental wishes they do not share are likely to shrivel, and with it these very qualities.

His choices sound fine to me if he doesn't want medicine.
He can easily do a chem degree with them and keep other options open.
My DS is doing Maths, Chem, bio and music. Music is by far the hardest. He is G8 too in piano and violin and absolutely loves the course. But he is thinking of dropping it in yr 13 due to time pressures. Ironically it prevents him practising his instruments and he would prefer to join more ensembles and develop his band (keyboard player) instead. His EPQ is in a medical area as he is trying to get a medical degree place otherwise he prob would have done a music based one. There are no AS levels offered at his school but the reference for UCAS can reference a fourth subject taken for a whole year.
He is predicted thre A stars in the sciences but an A in music. It's hard even for multi instrumentalists...
His school starts everyone on 4. Most drop to 3 at Xmas yr 12. Some carry-on for a full year. Very few take 4 and most of them have maths and FM

I'm going to mostly echo everyone else here. If these choices are based on your son's interests and those haven't changed, then your husband should stop being ridiculous and leave him alone! Reconsidering the basis of having dropped to an 8 in RS makes no sense at all. And even he wasn't sufficiently keen and motivated to do FM before, then why would he be now.

Having said that, IF you are really good at maths and interested in it, then doing Maths and FM is far less effort than doing 2 other A-levels (or at least it was 30 years ago...). Also, only Maths and Sciences tend to be "required" subjects for any degree courses (oh and languages for languages, in some cases). So if you are thinking in terms of "keeping options open" then they are the useful subjects. Do Music, RS if you love them, but not to keep options open. He could study RS/Philosophy or Music to degree level without A levels. Finally, you only need 3 A-levels, but it can be worth starting with 4 and dropping one if you really can't choose.

What does your son think? How does he feel about his choices? His future plans?

I'd consider Maths/Chemistry/Physics plus whichever he loves most of Philosophy/Music. Then see how he gets on. But I wouldn't push!

I've read your update now. Sorry, I started writing my reply before reading it. I think he should stick with his original plans. But also consider going down to three if he isn't loving it! Just don't drop Maths if he can help it...

This year with pre-release/advanced information, yes I would agree that RS had seemingly lesser content to learn than some other subjects (say A level Sociology) but in a 'normal' year? It's a lot of content to learn and remember over two years and requires synoptic links to achieve top grades.

In regards to whether he should do RS or Philosophy, I'd check the syllabus and what he liked about the GCSE in particular. Reason being is it may be the RS content / discussions he enjoyed...which won't be present on the Philosophy syllabus.

I agree with other posters that his options show a good mix and a good level of challenge. He should follow his gut.

His current choices make him look like an excellent all rounder with a very versatile and curious mind and a willingness to think deeply.

I would absolutely encourage him to stuck with what he has chosen, and tell DH to take a chill pill.

There is nothing worse than a parent projecting his or her own insecurity and ambition onto a teenager, whether it's in sports or academic success. It is soul destroying for the kid.

He had taster days for RS and Philosophy and decided he’s more interested in the latter. Interestingly, he considers himself an atheist but found RS to be fascinating. He always chooses the essay questions disputing God.

This is very interesting. Well I am a lawyer at a v high level (not boasting, just for context) and I think maths music chem and philosophy are brilliant a levels for that. Law is all about language, structured thought and ability to communicate complex ideas effectively and, often, simply. That wide variety of subjects shows both literacy and numeracy. Music is all about structured thought. I can’t tell you how many lawyers I know who are highly talented musicians - it would be quicker to name those who aren’t. I think the neural pathways set by a serious study of music also are well used in legal analysis.

what is really interesting if he does a chem/biochem/other scientific degree, that plus his music will make him highly attractive as an intellectual property lawyer. They need to wrestle with incredibly complex cutting edge chemistry in eg pharmaceutical patent infringement cases one minute, and eg analysing the process of composition of music in a copyright infringement action (eg the recent Ed Sheehan shape of you case v recently) the next. He would be fab across the board.

I would also say don’t do a law degree and convert afterwards. That’s the way I did it. But if he loves the idea of law (and doesn’t mind closing the IP door) he could do a law degree. He doesn’t need to decide now. But further maths wouldn’t help and it would probably be a hindrance. Better the discipline of philosophy, for law.

Thanks Delphigirl.I think he would make a great lawyer.

@NameChangeyForThis
DD is a barrister and did the law conversion route. She did MFL at undergrad. You need to be able to learn a lot very quickly! He should do a degree in a traditional subject. Music is ok. A friend of DDs did music at Oxford. FM not necessary unless it really helps with his undergrad degree. Go to the best university he can as they apply for training positions (solicitor) to fund the conversion course. I’m out of date on these but others will know more about what is now required. However sim high and do a recognised intellectual degree.,