GCSE maths and English - why so hard?

[Notcontent]

I am all for high academic standards. But it seems to me that the approach to maths and English at GCSE is a bit puzzling.

I think the issue with maths is that the exams are set at such a high level that only the most mathematically gifted students can do the hardest questions so you end up with very low grade boundaries. Targeting so many questions at such a high level can quite off putting to many students.

For English, both English literature and English language are really quite similar in that it’s all about analysis, which seems very narrow. It seems to suit people who can just waffle on in a meaningful way, under exam conditions, but really English is so much more than that…

[PugInTheHouse]

Sorry @Hercisback I should have said, the school is really limited on options as they are really small but I just meant they are not made to take history/geography or a language so no restrictions from that point of view. They have a lot less options than state schools which doesn't work for many children.

[Fireflygal]

Maths requires absolute perfection if you're going into fields like engineering, architecture or medicine

It really isn't. Engineering and architecture use programing to verify results, no one relies on manual calculations.. It's about the approach and creativity.

[Goingcrazy101]

Sorry not read whole thread but another one here who did igcse Edexcel - got a 9 on mocks but found last three questions impossibly hard. I think only two of his super bright friends managed them. He’s due to sit Further Maths after half term and he finds that tough at the best of times 😬

[ArseInTheCoOpWindow]

Maths requires absolute perfection if you're going into fields like engineering, architecture or medicine

It’s required in design too. But mainly calculated on computer.

[DorotheaDiamond]

I’d be fascinated to see the mark scheme for that maths question…i don’t envy the markers - I can see lots of different steps that all deserve marks…

[noblegiraffe]

Any industry that does not have built into its processes an assumption that human errors will be made and therefore incorporates ways to find and fix these is doing things wrong. Because human errors will be made.

I would expect any of these stated jobs where accuracy is “required” to have solid quality checking procedures and not rely on one person being 100% accurate 100% of the time.

[Badbadbunny]

@yesthatisdrizzle

Maths does demand perfection. You either get the right answer or you don't.

Knowing the method and getting a load of points for that while getting most of the answers wrong due to silly errors is not what I'd expect from a student who is awarded top marks. If people are making stupid mistakes then they shouldn't get the top marks.

They don't get marks for the bits they get wrong, they get marks for the bits they get right. If they make a silly mistake in step 1 but then do all the other steps right, "error carry forward" applies and they'd only lose a mark for the bit they got wrong.

It's an exam, not real life! Silly mistakes are bound to happen under exam conditions, stress, distractions, etc.

[Badbadbunny]

@BanjoVio

Maths requires absolute perfection if you're going into fields like engineering, architecture or medicine. Why not reward perfection?

Ok then, if a 10 mark question, give them a bonus mark if they get all 10 marks, i.e. "perfection"!

[Badbadbunny]

@noblegiraffe

Any industry that does not have built into its processes an assumption that human errors will be made and therefore incorporates ways to find and fix these is doing things wrong. Because human errors will be made.

I would expect any of these stated jobs where accuracy is “required” to have solid quality checking procedures and not rely on one person being 100% accurate 100% of the time.

Indeed. I've been an accountant for 35 years. In all the places I've worked, there is a hierarchy of supervision and literally no piece of work, whether a tax return, set of accounts, piece of tax advice, or even a simple letter, was ever completed without being reviewed, sometimes reviewed by several people along the way! Simple things were reviewed by someone of the same level (or even lower level if it was just checking additions or simple calculations), more important/complex things were reviewed by people higher up the hierarchy, right up to partner level.

Now I work alone as a sole trader. I have no one to review my work. But I have mitigations. The main one being that I NEVER send out a letter, tax return, set of accounts or even an email on the day I do the work - I ALWAYS wait a day and review in the cold light of a new day as a "sanity check", however urgent the work is perceived to be. After so many decades doing the same work, I also have a "bank" in my mind of checks & balances, will always check figures in different ways where possible, cross check against other "evidence", etc etc. Another thing I always do is make copious notes, write explanations, etc for whatever I do, mainly so that if I got run over by a bus, I pride myself in the knowledge that another accountant could walk in and hit the ground running - that also means that I think more about what I do, as writing it down and explaining it also highlights errors, whether simple errors or errors of principal.

Even though I could rattle off a simple tax return or set of accounts in a very short timescale, I don't because that's when errors creep in, just like the artificial world of exams! Real life is completely different to exams and students deserve to be credited for everything they get right along the way, even if the end result isn't right because that's not how real life works!

[TeenPlusCat]

You only get full marks if you get the eventual answer right. That is 'perfection'. The point being argued was that a grade 9 is better rewarded from doing the hardest questions correctly, and not on just not making silly errors lower down. Therefore the last question(s) on the paper should be such that only a few of the top set kids can do it, not all top set.

But this is typical MN really. A thread on Maths & Engl Lang papers being too hard / dispiriting for grade 3-6 candidates as once again turned into a grade 9 issue.
Whether someone gets an 8 or a 9 makes zero difference apart from bragging rights. Whether someone gets a 3 or a 4 can make all the difference in the world.

[Bovrilly]

Ok then, if a 10 mark question, give them a bonus mark if they get all 10 marks, i.e. "perfection"!

Then it would be an 11 mark question

The tenth mark is the "bonus" for getting it completely right.

[Stradbroke]

@TeenPlusCat

You only get full marks if you get the eventual answer right. That is 'perfection'. The point being argued was that a grade 9 is better rewarded from doing the hardest questions correctly, and not on just not making silly errors lower down. Therefore the last question(s) on the paper should be such that only a few of the top set kids can do it, not all top set.

But this is typical MN really. A thread on Maths & Engl Lang papers being too hard / dispiriting for grade 3-6 candidates as once again turned into a grade 9 issue.
Whether someone gets an 8 or a 9 makes zero difference apart from bragging rights. Whether someone gets a 3 or a 4 can make all the difference in the world.

Exactly this. Those at the top are viewed as more important than those who find it more difficult.
GCSE's are for everyone, not just those who are super bright and capable at exams.
A-levels are where those that are the brightest can push themselves, it's not too late if they haven't been pushed hard enough at GCSE. But if those that find it difficult are potentially having their futures changed because they are not seen as important. Once they have experienced failure that is really hard to come back from.

[noblegiraffe]

Yes, in maths you get method marks and accuracy marks. The accuracy marks are not awarded if you are not accurate, therefore there is your reward for accuracy.

[CornishGem1975]

I've told my DD time again. All you need to do is pass them all and get the grades you need for 6th form. Striving for a 9 in maths or english is needless when a 5 is all she actually needs to progress. She'll likely do better but I'm not heaping that pressure on her. The majority are not MEANT to be getting 9s.

[Chakraleaf]

I'm happy for mine to get a 4. Just pass :)

[TeenPlusCat]

@Chakraleaf

I'm happy for mine to get a 4. Just pass :)

Oh me too. Please. Please.

[Girliefriendlikespuppies]

More than happy with a pass here, I've also said to dd if she does fail maths or English it's not the end of the world she can resist them easily enough at college.

The amount of exams they have to do and the pressure they're under is crazy imo, 6 exams just for science?!! It's ridiculous.

[TeenPlusCat]

DD is resitting at college. tbh It is a bit of a pain as it means she has to think about them as well as her course. Plus she gets 'only' 5 maths/English per week, so 2 of each plus 1 other lesson that flips every half term. (Plus in her case she isn't well enough anyway.)

[yellowsuninthesky]

Given the amount of time spent on Maths (to the detriment to other subjects like languages and arts subjects) it should count for two GCSEs like science and English do (I know some kids do triple science).

[noblegiraffe]

It does count for 2 GCSEs in progress measures. Gove was told by Carol Vorderman in the maths report he commissioned her to write that Maths should be literally two separate GCSEs but that was a Labour policy so he rejected it.

[Bovrilly]

They have adopted that policy in Wales, two separate GCSEs in maths and numeracy. Lots of people do both but some just do numeracy. Gove is such a twat.

I was reading about this the other day and saw this headline which made me laugh

Almost 50 per cent of adults can't do basic maths (that means half)

[110APiccadilly]

@Bovrilly

They have adopted that policy in Wales, two separate GCSEs in maths and numeracy. Lots of people do both but some just do numeracy. Gove is such a twat.

I was reading about this the other day and saw this headline which made me laugh

Almost 50 per cent of adults can't do basic maths (that means half)

Almost all, IME (and that's quite extensive), do both. It's a good idea wrecked by its implementation. Which is a shame.

[Bovrilly]

Yes I think in Wales they felt that numeracy was important enough to be a subject in its own right but that both are useful. Both have the three tiers to accommodate the range of ability plus there's a different qualification in numeracy for those who aren't at GCSE level.

[CornishGem1975]

I'd be happy with just a pass too but unfortunately a 4 in maths or English doesn't get DD into 6th form and they won't allow retakes. All she wants is to go to there so I really want her to get her 5!

[TeenPlusCat]

@CornishGem1975

I'd be happy with just a pass too but unfortunately a 4 in maths or English doesn't get DD into 6th form and they won't allow retakes. All she wants is to go to there so I really want her to get her 5!

That's a bit miserable. I can understand a 5 in maths to do science based A levels, or a 5 in English to do essay based ones, but both seems a bit sad. Does she have a plan B lined up just in case?