GCSE maths and English - why so hard?

[Notcontent]

I am all for high academic standards. But it seems to me that the approach to maths and English at GCSE is a bit puzzling.

I think the issue with maths is that the exams are set at such a high level that only the most mathematically gifted students can do the hardest questions so you end up with very low grade boundaries. Targeting so many questions at such a high level can quite off putting to many students.

For English, both English literature and English language are really quite similar in that it’s all about analysis, which seems very narrow. It seems to suit people who can just waffle on in a meaningful way, under exam conditions, but really English is so much more than that…

[TeenPlusCat]

@dodobookends

If you excel at maths and are a potential grade 9 candidate, then you shouldn't be making stupid mistakes.

Umm. I had many maths reports I had up to O level I used to get something like 'still makes too many careless mistakes'. iirc I got 99%&97% in my mocks, those marks lost were still careless ones.

[Bovrilly]

Mistakes are almost inevitable in maths I think, particularly in timed exams. It's useful to know that and to try to minimise the chances you giving yourself to make them.

[heliowotsit]

@noblegiraffe

Tbh I thought it was fine for a last question. It was only 5 marks so not going to lose you a 9 if that was the only question you couldn't do.

Kids who have been taught to grub for marks should have worked out some stuff that will get them marks.

Kids who were paying extreme attention to the advanced info provided will have noticed that area of a sector, area of a triangle and exact trig values were on the advanced info but not otherwise tested: Hinty McHintFace.

I see that Dr Frost Maths has now added a similar question to its Key Kills random question generator. This is an example why its a good thing to include difficult questions each year. Following cohorts will go through those questions with their teachers, or discover them online, and it will lead to continuous improvement over time. Exams should be stretching. If Exam Boards need to provide easier papers for cohorts that struggle, then so be it, but our brightest mathematicians shouldn't be neglected just because they are (in the words of a pp) "a tiny minority".

[TeenPlusCat]

helio Although I don't necessarily disagree with you, I'd like to point out that 'our brightest mathematicians' aren't 'neglected'. GCSEs are meant to be general. Bright interested mathematicians can go on to A level or degree. (Which is sort of back to why I don't really see the point of grade 9s apart from parental bragging rights.)

[heliowotsit]

@TeenPlusCat

helio Although I don't necessarily disagree with you, I'd like to point out that 'our brightest mathematicians' aren't 'neglected'. GCSEs are meant to be general. Bright interested mathematicians can go on to A level or degree. (Which is sort of back to why I don't really see the point of grade 9s apart from parental bragging rights.)

Why can't they be stretched in KS3 and KS4 too? Maths skills are cumulative.

I've seen bright kids loving maths when they have teachers who differentiate appropriately, be turned right off when they have teachers who don't.

Btw, here is a link to the question on DFM: www.drfrostmaths.com/keyskills.php?tid=25&permid=1038

[TeenPlusCat]

Of course they can be stretched too. You can stretch in maths loads of ways without necessarily putting harder questions in at the top end of the GCSE.

Anyway we have wandered off topic quite a lot which is why the base level of the English and Maths GCSEs is so hard / inaccessible to 'average' 3-6 grade children.

[AReallyUsefulEngine]

In Maths at least stretching able students doesn’t have to be via the Maths GCSE though. Among other options there are UKMT, AQA’s level 2 certificate in further maths and OCR’s level 3 FSMQ.

[noblegiraffe]

If you excel at maths and are a potential grade 9 candidate, then you shouldn't be making stupid mistakes.

Don't be daft, everyone makes stupid mistakes. Painting maths as a subject that requires absolute perfection would damage its reputation even further, particularly among girls for whom perfectionism is a real issue.

[noblegiraffe]

The maths GCSE and A-level have been designed, per Gove, specifically with the most able students in mind. Suggesting that they have been neglected compared to other students, particularly the least able is ridiculous! The Foundation Paper had a question on it asking what the value of sin 30 was. Without a calculator.

That's the question that should be causing outrage in the newspapers. What is the point of that?

[Fireflygal]

@noblegiraffe, if you have any insight.. Is there much difference between GCSE & IGCSE? How do they ensure level playing field? Private schools tend to do IGCSEs

[yesthatisdrizzle]

@noblegiraffe

If you excel at maths and are a potential grade 9 candidate, then you shouldn't be making stupid mistakes.

Don't be daft, everyone makes stupid mistakes. Painting maths as a subject that requires absolute perfection would damage its reputation even further, particularly among girls for whom perfectionism is a real issue.

Maths does demand perfection. You either get the right answer or you don't.

Knowing the method and getting a load of points for that while getting most of the answers wrong due to silly errors is not what I'd expect from a student who is awarded top marks. If people are making stupid mistakes then they shouldn't get the top marks.

[MangoMaddie]

@yesthatisdrizzle

Maths does demand perfection. You either get the right answer or you don't.

Knowing the method and getting a load of points for that while getting most of the answers wrong due to silly errors is not what I'd expect from a student who is awarded top marks. If people are making stupid mistakes then they shouldn't get the top marks.

It’s a 9 at GCSE, not a Fields Medal 😭

[TeenPlusCat]

@yesthatisdrizzle

Maths does demand perfection. You either get the right answer or you don't.

Knowing the method and getting a load of points for that while getting most of the answers wrong due to silly errors is not what I'd expect from a student who is awarded top marks. If people are making stupid mistakes then they shouldn't get the top marks.

My director of studies at university (who wrote The Book on maths cambridge STEP) taught a valuable lesson: "don't worry about the 2s". Ultimately understanding the method is far more important than fine details. Once you have the method you can go through and correct silly mistakes, but it is the method which is important.

[noblegiraffe]

It’s a 9 at GCSE, not a Fields Medal



Maths does demand perfection. You either get the right answer or you don't.

Maybe if you're in primary school. By secondary questions get a bit more complex and making a good start attracts method/process marks.

Given that we have girls who are frozen with fear at the prospect of writing anything down if they aren't completely sure of themselves, the idea that it is ok to make mistakes occasionally and everyone does it is actually an important one to get across.

Also important is the idea that seeing a question that you don't know how to do and having a go at something even if you're not sure about it because it might help.

Demanding perfection is harmful to doing maths.

[noblegiraffe]

@Fireflygal

@noblegiraffe, if you have any insight.. Is there much difference between GCSE & IGCSE? How do they ensure level playing field? Private schools tend to do IGCSEs

IGCSE used to be seen as 'more rigorous' than GCSE as it contained harder topics like a bit of calculus. I think that has flipped since the 9-1 reforms and GCSE papers are now considered more difficult. Hard to judge as we haven't had exams for two years though.

Ofqual's job is to regulate the qualifications and make sure they are comparable.

[TeenPlusCat]

If two children get say 90 out of 100 on a maths paper, one lost 10 single marks due to arithmetic or other silly mistakes, and one lost 10 marks due wrong methods, I would say the former was better at maths than the latter (though maybe I wouldn't trust them with my tax return).

[ArseInTheCoOpWindow]

When l did Maths GCSE and when l taught GCSE ( not Maths) the highest level you could get was a C on Foundation paper.

[DFOD]

@noblegiraffe

IGCSE used to be seen as 'more rigorous' than GCSE as it contained harder topics like a bit of calculus. I think that has flipped since the 9-1 reforms and GCSE papers are now considered more difficult. Hard to judge as we haven't had exams for two years though.

Ofqual's job is to regulate the qualifications and make sure they are comparable.

Is this the same between the boards? As my DD did Edexcel IGCSE on Friday which she said the consensus was amongst her friends at numerous schools that this was a harder paper than the Edexcel GCSE and the AQA GCSE …. although it could be selective “evidence” and drama (for which she has form ….)

[Badbadbunny]

Maths does demand perfection. You either get the right answer or you don't.

Completely wrong. You can get the majority of the marks for a longer question if you get the wrong answer. Marks are awarded at every step of the way, and making a simple mistake along the way will only lose a mark or two if the correct logic/formulae/steps were followed.

[noblegiraffe]

If the paper was more difficult, the grade boundaries should be lower.

[whenwillthemadnessend]

@CornishGem1975

I do think all kids should have basic maths and English for all future careers. Perhaps with More advanced levels for medicine science teaching law engineering etc.

But making ALL kids in a school take french or history when some are really talented artists or designers or chefs or sportsman and hate french/history is a waste and makes kids miserable and reduces the drive to carry on with learning. Just achieve a few letters of the alphabet that spell EBACC. It's selling many talented kids short.

[CornishGem1975]

Oh yeah agree @whenwillthemadnessend We didn't go for EBACC because neither of mine wanted to do a language. They did however have to choose either history or geography.

[PugInTheHouse]

My DCs didn't have any restrictions on what options they chose at their school. Small private school very hot on developing the DCs and pastoral care etc. DS1 very academic, predicted 7-9s, but also does a lot of professional music work outside of school so school let him do his 5 core plus music, PE and Spanish, instead of 4th option he is allowed to do study sessions (usually for children with additional needs) so he doesn't have to do as much school work outside of the school day.

DS2 has learning difficulties so has taken Cambridge PE, vocational business and music, plus study sessions instead of 4th option. All 3 have the exams/assessments throughout Y10 and early Y11 which takes the pressure off him and means he can get the 4s in English, Maths and Science which he needs for the college course he wants.

To me this makes sense as they can still get good qualifications but can concentrate on getting decent marks rather than struggling in subjects they aren't good at or don't enjoy. English is hard enough for DS2 let alone another language, or having to do huge amounts of written exams in something like History.

[Hercisback]

OTOH state schools are limited by staff, room sizes, option blocks, having as many students as possible in one group. Therefore cannot run the same as a small private school in terms of options.

[BanjoVio]

@noblegiraffe

If you excel at maths and are a potential grade 9 candidate, then you shouldn't be making stupid mistakes.

Don't be daft, everyone makes stupid mistakes. Painting maths as a subject that requires absolute perfection would damage its reputation even further, particularly among girls for whom perfectionism is a real issue.

Maths requires absolute perfection if you're going into fields like engineering, architecture or medicine. Why not reward perfection?