GCSE maths and English - why so hard?

[Notcontent]

I am all for high academic standards. But it seems to me that the approach to maths and English at GCSE is a bit puzzling.

I think the issue with maths is that the exams are set at such a high level that only the most mathematically gifted students can do the hardest questions so you end up with very low grade boundaries. Targeting so many questions at such a high level can quite off putting to many students.

For English, both English literature and English language are really quite similar in that it’s all about analysis, which seems very narrow. It seems to suit people who can just waffle on in a meaningful way, under exam conditions, but really English is so much more than that…

[TeenPlusCat]

It's the Engl Lang paper 2 that worries me. DD2 is quite capable of completely panicking with the 19thC source and deciding she can't understand a word of it.

[sashh]

The problem is you can either have qualifications for more academic pupils and accept only a minority will get top grades, or you can have a qualification that is accessible by most students and put up with the 'dumbing down'.

I'm old enough to have doe O Levels, only the top 20% academically even sat O Levels, then you had CSEs and then you had 50% or pupils who didn't sit any qualifications.

Don't get me wrong I don't want to go back to that system.

The ebac and progress 8 are far too limiting, you could have a fantastically talented artistic student who would ace GCSEs in art, photography, graphics but they can only choose one art subject.

On the other hand a student who is good at science can take 4 science based GCSEs.

I also think students should be able to take fewer GCSEs, I see no point in a student leaving with 10 grade 1 GCSEs when you could have got better grades in fewer subjects and possibly access other qualifications.

We try to fit all children into one system, and they don't all fit.

[Girliefriendlikespuppies]

I don't understand why the system seems set up to cause so much stress. Surely this year especially there should be a lot of consideration as to how much school the year 11s have missed?

I bloody hate Michael Gove.

My dd has said so far the exams have been easier than the mocks which were horrendous, she's a middle of the road student and just hoping for passes above 4.

Her teacher put her forward for higher maths despite protestations from dd and I, she failed the maths mock and if she fails the GCSE I will complain to the school.

It's awful for the kids to be faced with so many quest they have no clue how to answer.

[horseymum]

In scotland we used to have foundation, general and credit papers for standard grade ( like gcse). You sat f and g or g and c. Foundation you could only get 5/6, general 4 and credit 1/2. They then changed it all to be national 4 and 5, so you could get a pass at nat 4 or do nat 5. The nat 4 are all classroom assessment and for those who wouldn't do well in an exam. It's all very complicated now.

[zen1]

DS did Edexcel maths on Friday. He said it was much harder than the past papers they used for the mocks over the last two years (he consistently got 9s in those). He said he understood how to do the last question, but ran out of time (despite extra time for SEN). Interestingly he has friends at other schools who did AQA and they have all said it was easier than expected. Is there an official body that scrutinises the exam boards to make sure they present papers that are pitched at the same level?

[110APiccadilly]

@TeenPlusCat

@110APiccadilly I think problem solving includes identifying which skills to use. So on that final question they have to:

• identify that drawing some triangles would be helpful
• find the area of a triangle without its height
• find the area of a segment & sector (and no I can't remember which is which)
• combine all of that together correctly

If it was just skill based they would say

• draw in the triangle
• using pythagoras find the height of the triangle, hence find its area
• etc

Easier questions generally 'signpost' what skills need to be used, where as this final question leaves it very much up to the student.

Ah, I see. I was thinking of identifying what to use as a skill in itself, but I can see how that could be a helpful distinction.

[Chakraleaf]

My daughter said she didn't do very well

[whenwillthemadnessend]

@sashh

Completely agree

Dd is pretty sure of a 7 or above in Art DT and i media but in maths a 6 would be fabulous but anything over a 4 would be great.

She found the maths really hard.

There should be a numeracy paper
Then lower maths say upto a 7 and higher maths for those that are maths minded. It just puts the other kids off.

[whenwillthemadnessend]

We are lucky at her school they dont force ebacc and she could take two artistic subjects plus a media btec

Then she only has to sit her maths English 3 science and a humanity.

She is less overloaded and stressed than many of her friends that choose the ebacc. And in 20 or even 10 years no one will care what GCSEs she did.

[DrRuthGalloway]

I am an Ed psych. I think the Gove GCSEs are traumatizing for many kids with SEN. It's fine if you are a grade 9 kid (my son in year 10 just got 98 percent on his maths mock) but only a few percent of kids are grade 9 kids. A chunk of the rest of the kids are looking at scores of 20 or 30 percent and still passing, but how bloody demoralizing. And not many schools offer functional skills, and there isn't a credible alternative system for kids who leave high school after 5 years with 10 GCSEs at grade 1 or 2, or who get so anxious they drop out. We need a far more flexible offer at age 16 like we have at sixth form.

My older son took English language GCSE 5 times. He never passed, despite having excellent spelling, grammar and writing skills, because English Language is effectively an unseen literature paper. The non fiction paper is a joke for neurodiverse kids; it requires writing about a topic such as sport or travel on spec and thereby hugely favours any young person who is lucky enough to happen to be interested in or knowledgeable about the chosen subject.

It's no wonder we are facing an anxiety crisis in teens. Referrals to camhs for anxiety in teens rose by 60 percent from 2017 to 2019 and have risen a further 25 percent (iirc) since then. The pandemic has obviously not helped, but Michael Gove and his team and their entirely ideologically led curriculum are in my view a large part of the reason for that.

It's cruel.

[BanjoVio]

@TeenPlusCat

It's the Engl Lang paper 2 that worries me. DD2 is quite capable of completely panicking with the 19thC source and deciding she can't understand a word of it.

I don't think this means we shouldn't do it. Many kids would look at a contemporary historical source in GCSE History or a passage in GCSE French that's, well, written in French and panic because they don't understand a word of it. The more difficult questions are there to separate out the candidates who deserve top grades.

[TeenPlusCat]

@BanjoVio

I don't think this means we shouldn't do it. Many kids would look at a contemporary historical source in GCSE History or a passage in GCSE French that's, well, written in French and panic because they don't understand a word of it. The more difficult questions are there to separate out the candidates who deserve top grades.

I do think it means there should be a foundation level paper for English Language which doesn't include 19thC text.

In Engl Lang (AQA at least) the second source is needed for both Q2 & Q4. It isn't like maths with loads of questions getting gradually harder.

With English Language the distinction between grades isn't on harder questions, It is on quality and depth of answers. But if a less able DC has found the 19C text mind blowing it doesn't give them a chance to show anything. Couiple that with giving them a Q5 on something they have no interest in eg sport, it makes it panic inducing.

[caringcarer]

My son missed so much Maths with lockdown and for some reason his school refused to let kids have those catch up classes. He will go into Maths paper 2 and 3 having not quite completed specification. It is so frustrating. He thought paper 1 ok but his teacher spent too much time teaching paper 1 and little time on papers 2 and 3. He has had tutor but still not covered all topics as do much to cover. At least in science they took some content out. Maths should have done the same.

[TeenPlusCat]

@caringcarer

My son missed so much Maths with lockdown and for some reason his school refused to let kids have those catch up classes. He will go into Maths paper 2 and 3 having not quite completed specification. It is so frustrating. He thought paper 1 ok but his teacher spent too much time teaching paper 1 and little time on papers 2 and 3. He has had tutor but still not covered all topics as do much to cover. At least in science they took some content out. Maths should have done the same.

Most pupils don't cover the full spec for maths even in normal years.

[noblegiraffe]

My son missed so much Maths with lockdown and for some reason his school refused to let kids have those catch up classes

What catch-up classes? If you're talking about the National Tutoring Programme, there aren't any maths tutors available to do it.

He will go into Maths paper 2 and 3 having not quite completed specification.

Unless he's meant to be getting a grade 8/9 this is normal for maths.

[TeenPlusCat]

What did you think of the final edexcel question @noblegiraffe ? Reasonable or not?
I accept my perception may be skewed caught between a maths degree and 2 DC who don't find maths easy.

[noblegiraffe]

Tbh I thought it was fine for a last question. It was only 5 marks so not going to lose you a 9 if that was the only question you couldn't do.

Kids who have been taught to grub for marks should have worked out some stuff that will get them marks.

Kids who were paying extreme attention to the advanced info provided will have noticed that area of a sector, area of a triangle and exact trig values were on the advanced info but not otherwise tested: Hinty McHintFace.

[CornishGem1975]

She is less overloaded and stressed than many of her friends that choose the ebacc. And in 20 or even 10 years no one will care what GCSEs she did.

I wish that was true but they've put so much weight on GCSEs - as an adult learner I wanted to go back and train as a nurse. Except I only achieved a D in maths 25 years ago, so to do that, I either have to retake a maths GCSE or do a year's foundation/access course to get onto the nursing degree. No matter that I have life experience, various other qualifications, even a level 6 professional diploma. It's absolutely crazy.

[Notcontent]

@heliowotsit

Only the most mathematically gifted students can do the hardest questions

I don't have a problem with this. They use these questions to distinguish between grade 8 and grade 9 students. But schools do need to explain this to their students, so they know what to expect.

No, they don’t actually - very few grade 9 students can do those questions - that’s why the grade boundaries are so low!

[Lalupita]

Very simply....the Tories happened.
They thought by making exams more rigorous children would automatically get more intelligent. Instead we see more anxiety, worse behaviour, more school refusers, fewer teachers, and an incredibly hard exam that even the able students do badly on so they have to lower the grade boundaries so much it's 20% for a pass.....
Some of the things I have to teach in my subject is what I didn't do until university level. And what used to be A level is now GCSE etc.

[noblegiraffe]

82.5% for a grade 9 in 2019 Edexcel maths. That's not particularly low, I think, for the top grade. It could be higher, but I wouldn't want it into the 90s because then you are basically penalising stupid mistakes rather than rewarding mathematical ability.

[yesthatisdrizzle]

I wonder how youngsters would get on with the maths and English O'level papers I sat...

Judging by the approach to teaching both maths and English at school these days, and knowing what was expected when my dd sat her GCSE's, not very well. My BIL marks GCSE and A'level papers in science, and he says that the syllabus covered and the questions are nowhere near as difficult as when he took his.

[dodobookends]

@noblegiraffe

82.5% for a grade 9 in 2019 Edexcel maths. That's not particularly low, I think, for the top grade. It could be higher, but I wouldn't want it into the 90s because then you are basically penalising stupid mistakes rather than rewarding mathematical ability.

If you excel at maths and are a potential grade 9 candidate, then you shouldn't be making stupid mistakes.

[Hercisback]

@dodobookends Silly mistakes are different to fundamental misunderstanding. I wouldn't want the boundary in the 90s because it would penalise the wrong type of mark being lost.

[TeenPlusCat]

yes I got As for both my Maths & English Lang&Lit O levels.

First you have to remember that O levels were aimed at only the top 40? 30? 20? % whereas all children have to sit GCSEs.

Then the English Language at least is very different. I'm sure I didn't have to discuss structure of text or compare and contrast ways writers used language across different texts.

Furthermore, even at my apparently 'top' school, I had to choose between doing Physics & Chemistry or Biology. So the Biology my DDs had to do for GCSEs was by definition far harder than any I had to for O level.