GCSE maths and English - why so hard?

[Notcontent]

I am all for high academic standards. But it seems to me that the approach to maths and English at GCSE is a bit puzzling.

I think the issue with maths is that the exams are set at such a high level that only the most mathematically gifted students can do the hardest questions so you end up with very low grade boundaries. Targeting so many questions at such a high level can quite off putting to many students.

For English, both English literature and English language are really quite similar in that it’s all about analysis, which seems very narrow. It seems to suit people who can just waffle on in a meaningful way, under exam conditions, but really English is so much more than that…

[TeenPlusCat]

I used pythagoras but no trig.
I do think that for a grade 9 question not leading them through it is fine. If you lead them through it is no longer a grade 9 question. (Though what do I know, not a teacher nor do I have DC at that level)

[Bovrilly]

Here you go @110APiccadilly I screen shotted it from Reddit

Hope it's legible

[Notcontent]

i think the problem with making an exam too hard is that it doesn’t really allow students to show what they have learnt. GCSE maths is pretty hard - I have been amazed at some of the stuff included. So you could still have quite a challenging exam without making it so hard that less than 80% is a 9 and less than 40% is a pass…

[110APiccadilly]

@Bovrilly

Here you go @110APiccadilly I screen shotted it from Reddit

Hope it's legible

Thank you. I'm going to go against the grain here. I don't think it's that bad. (I am assuming it must have said or indicated somewhere that A, B and C were the centres of the circles, otherwise I don't think you have enough information to do it). All you actually need to know, mathematically, is that an equilateral triangle has angles of 60 degrees, and how to calculate the area of a triangle and a circle.

However, I think what may have put people off is that you have to think about it to work out what it is you need to know, and how to put that together. There's absolutely no hint or clue how to approach it. I have to say, I think that is fair enough in the context of the hardest question on a paper. Maths can't (or at least shouldn't) just be about learning how to do certain questions which are set up how you expect. It has to have some element of being able to reason forward from what you do know to what you don't yet know. One of the great benefits of being taught maths well is that you should end up able to reason well.

(But I'd also agree that it might be a good idea to let children either do maths or numeracy at GCSE, so there's that.)

[WalkerWalking]

Maths teacher here. You're not wrong, it's ridiculous. Why make an exam so entirely inaccessible, and then hand out Grade 4s for less than 20%? Same thing at A level- you don't need much more than 50% to get an A, but everyone would be better off with an exam they can actually attempt and having to get 80% for an A.

It's so demoralising teaching kids for 2 years, and knowing that they can do even the trickiest topics, but also knowing that they probably wont even be able to get started on those questions in the exam.

[heliowotsit]

Only the most mathematically gifted students can do the hardest questions

I don't have a problem with this. They use these questions to distinguish between grade 8 and grade 9 students. But schools do need to explain this to their students, so they know what to expect.

[WalkerWalking]

@110APiccadilly

Thank you. I'm going to go against the grain here. I don't think it's that bad. (I am assuming it must have said or indicated somewhere that A, B and C were the centres of the circles, otherwise I don't think you have enough information to do it). All you actually need to know, mathematically, is that an equilateral triangle has angles of 60 degrees, and how to calculate the area of a triangle and a circle.

However, I think what may have put people off is that you have to think about it to work out what it is you need to know, and how to put that together. There's absolutely no hint or clue how to approach it. I have to say, I think that is fair enough in the context of the hardest question on a paper. Maths can't (or at least shouldn't) just be about learning how to do certain questions which are set up how you expect. It has to have some element of being able to reason forward from what you do know to what you don't yet know. One of the great benefits of being taught maths well is that you should end up able to reason well.

(But I'd also agree that it might be a good idea to let children either do maths or numeracy at GCSE, so there's that.)

Of course the hardest question on the paper should be, well, hard! But the balance of easy to difficult, and the balance of skills based to problem solving, is all wrong at the moment.

[Bovrilly]

It seems a bit pointless to have a whole question of good stuff that almost everyone will get nowhere with. It's not really doing its job of finding out who can do what - there will be a lot of very able mathematicians who are not identified and how do you tell which of those are 7s, which are 8s and which are 9s?

[bloodyunicorns]

There's a place for academic rigour, but that doesn't suit everyone. There should be functional maths and English papers, and definitely a lower English one that students can pass, not just get a D in.

Employers want to know that students can write a business letter/email, send invoices, handle daily correspondence, understand what they're reading, do a bit of critical thinking - practical skills.

19th-century lit is so dense and inaccessible to many students today.

[bloodyunicorns]

@ShirleyJackson

I teach English, and the Language Paper 1 is pretty fair.

Language Paper 2 is horrendous, though. Completely inaccessible for lower ability students, boring and irrelevant.

No wonder English A level uptake is at an all-time low. It’d turn anyone off.

Is it really? That's such a shame, as reading is truly a gateway to another world. Dd was G&T in English but was totally put off by spending so long on each text, wringing every drop of meaning and fun out of it. It's been a real struggle to get her to read anything since GCSE English. Such a shame!

[heliowotsit]

The aim of the more difficult GCSE Maths papers in recent years is, theoretically, to raise the standard of maths teaching and learning. But it's a big ask when many (most) secondary maths teachers in comprehensive schools were not 'the most able' mathematicians themselves. From the CVs I've seen (as a school governor, interviewing) many got Bs/Cs at maths A level, and second or third class degrees. They may be great at teaching lower and middle ability kids but don't know how to inspire the brightest. I see very able kids getting dissilusioned with maths at secondary level because the pace is too slow for them, tasks too repetitive, and they are rarely given any interesting or stretching problems to solve. Hopefully this situation will improve over time as schools gradually get better at teaching the necessary skills.

[CornishGem1975]

That's interesting @ShirleyJackson My DD didn't thing English Paper 1 went well but she's feeling positive about Paper 2 as she finds that easier.

[TeenPlusCat]

Full disclosure. Just the the final maths question above. The version I saw had the triangles in already so I had that hint.

[O2HaveALittleHouse]

I think the maths level is generally about right as otherwise the leap to A level is too much. However the English is pretty tough. The kids might not come out of an exam crying as they can at least attempt the paper but getting good grades is hard.

[Hercisback]

Hopefully this situation will improve over time as schools gradually get better at teaching the necessary skills.

Good luck with that! Able mathematicians don't tend to aspire to teach. (I say this as a maths teacher).

There should be functional maths/numeracy for those who need it.

The edexcel question is fine. It does differentiate between the 7,8,9 effectively because the 7s won't be able to answer it.

I expect staggeringly low boundaries this year.

[ArticSaviour]

@TeenPlusCat

I agree.
They really need to

• bring back a foundation tier for English Language that is more straightforward (& doesn't have 19th C text in paper 2)
• bring back intermediate tier for maths. then have 3 papers basic, intermediate & higher and you either sit basic+intermediate or intermediate+higher

Or they need to let lower ability pupils go straight to functional skills.
Or have 2 GCSEs for each a 'functional' GCSE and an 'academic' one. Like wales does for maths.

Edexcel use the 19th century extract for Paper 1. It is always an accessible piece of fiction. In fact, the whole exam structure is way better than AQA.

[BanjoVio]

@Notcontent

I am all for high academic standards. But it seems to me that the approach to maths and English at GCSE is a bit puzzling.

I think the issue with maths is that the exams are set at such a high level that only the most mathematically gifted students can do the hardest questions so you end up with very low grade boundaries. Targeting so many questions at such a high level can quite off putting to many students.

For English, both English literature and English language are really quite similar in that it’s all about analysis, which seems very narrow. It seems to suit people who can just waffle on in a meaningful way, under exam conditions, but really English is so much more than that…

As a former GCSE English Lit examiner, I assure you that we can spot waffle. English Language alone incorporates non-fiction analysis and an original writing task. English Literature requires close comparison of texts and an appreciation of context, e.g. socio-historical, to inform an argument. Typically half marks will get you a Grade 4 in both. It's hardly demanding high standards for a passing grade. But what do I know, I just waffle on 😏

[DFOD]

My DD was devastated after maths on Friday. She had always been taught to work really thoroughly through the easier first half securing as many marks as possible in the knowledge that if you get 100% here you have a 7 and then tackle the 2nd half for bonus grades and don’t worry too much about the last hardest Q.

What she thinks happened only on reflection (after being totally demotivated in the exam) is that they changed the running order mixing up the harder and easier Qs and it was only after she had struggled through the hard stuff that she realised there were easier ones at the back which by then she didn’t have time to do.

So this exam might be measuring the emotional impact and resourcefulness rather than maths in that some will have looked to the end and worked out where the easier Qs were and tackled those and consequently done well - whereas others will have got stuck in the mud and demoralised with really hard Qs earlier on on the “easier” first half and thought these were the easier Qs they need to crack.

Be interesting how the grade boundaries pan out in this situation. Not really fair to change the running order (if that’s what happened - only have the say so of a despondent 15 year old)

[Bovrilly]

@TeenPlusCat

Full disclosure. Just the the final maths question above. The version I saw had the triangles in already so I had that hint.

You seem to be saying then that it's fine to give GCSE students a question that a maths graduate could do after a little thought and having been given a massive clue.

[Musmerian]

All English teachers hate the English Language exam with a passion. Large chunks of it are more like literature anyway so not much differentiation and the other parts are pointless. Something much more like A level language would be better. Reform is needed. Exams also pointlessly difficult since Gove reforms.

[Workyticket]

@Rummikub

I think there is an argument for functional skills level 1/2 to be offered. Would help with confidence in those subjects and can still access options post 16 with it.

Functional skills has had an overhaul and is much harder. We run it at our college and the pass rate is really low - 35% ish.

Demoralising too as they can re-sit and often fail way more than once.

[TeenPlusCat]

@Bovrilly

You seem to be saying then that it's fine to give GCSE students a question that a maths graduate could do after a little thought and having been given a massive clue.

Yes and no. When I answered before I didn't know I had been given a clue and I think I would have solved it anyway.

However, there was zero advanced maths in the question. What is the point of a grade 9 if not to distinguish the 'best' of the mathematicians? If all the grade 8s were capable of answering it, then it wouldn't help distinguish the 9s.

My maths is very rusty. I couldn't do well at A level now, so you could argue I'm not much better than GCSE standard these days. (Though I do have an extra 40 years of general problem solving practice.) There was an A level question posted yesterday and I didn't know how to do it.

I have no issue with the argument that the maths paper as a whole is too hard for grade 4-6, but as a final stretching grade 9 question, I think it's OK.

[110APiccadilly]

@WalkerWalking

Of course the hardest question on the paper should be, well, hard! But the balance of easy to difficult, and the balance of skills based to problem solving, is all wrong at the moment.

I'd say this is a very good example of a skills based, rather than knowledge based, question. So are you saying there's too much emphasis on skills and not enough on knowledge in the syllabus/ exam papers at the moment?

Of course, if the whole paper was like this, that would be pretty harsh! But I'm assuming it wasn't.

[110APiccadilly]

I misread your message, sorry! I'm not sure there's a distinction between "skills based" and "problem solving" though (which is maybe why I misread!) Isn't problem solving just using your skills?

I'm not a maths teacher, so I may be missing some technical distinction maths teachers use here.

[TeenPlusCat]

@110APiccadilly I think problem solving includes identifying which skills to use. So on that final question they have to:

• identify that drawing some triangles would be helpful
• find the area of a triangle without its height
• find the area of a segment & sector (and no I can't remember which is which)
• combine all of that together correctly

If it was just skill based they would say

• draw in the triangle
• using pythagoras find the height of the triangle, hence find its area
• etc

Easier questions generally 'signpost' what skills need to be used, where as this final question leaves it very much up to the student.