Concerned UK "Co-Ed" Independent Schools are Sexist

[squiffymum]

Dear Mumsnet

Apologies for the somewhat inflammatory subject line...

We're currently applying for independent co-ed schools and I've just discovered that pretty much all of them have a 60/40 boy to girl ratio, rather than being truly co-ed (50/50).

Frankly, I'm deeply upset and pretty disgusted by this. It's 2022, not 1822. When I try and unpick the reasons for this ratio... it's sexism, plain and simple. And we're sending a signal to school-age students that this is acceptable and normal? I asked one of the schools for the rationale: it was "so that the boys aren't dominated". As parents of a daughter, are we truly expected to stump up independent fees (for the same fees as the boys) for her to be "dominated"?

Also, it also presumably means it's harder for girls to get into these schools than boys. How is this even legal - surely it's discriminatory?

Is anyone else upset by this, or am I all alone in my outrage? ;-)

(Background is - we're moving out of London and wish to send our daughter (ten) and later our son (still only seven) to an independent school - ideally, the same one. They're currently in the public/state system, however we feel they'll benefit from smaller class sizes. We are looking across a wide area of the South West, from Portsmouth to Bath - even up to Cheltenham. I can't believe we are willing to pay good money but there are no options that aren't single sex or effectively single sex ("co-ed" schools with 60/40 boy/girl ratios are boys schools that accept girls to my mind). Per the above - it's 2022!)

I would live in Kent if I had my pick, but work is in the South West. This sounds like a fabulous school. Boarding is on the periphery of our minds - certainly not out of the question. My husband boarded and loved it. Thank you!

Good call. We also have a boy and a girl, so the idea of sending them to the same school (or nearby) is appealing.

This is it. Our children have so many interests (some of them physical but not on the assigned list of team sports) and so little time. I believe strongly in the virtues of physical exercise, but it seems a shame to force every child to spend so much time on such a narrow selection of activities. I am quite taken aback by this - I have learnt so much from this thread!

I can recommend a Co Ed school in Cheltenham that isn’t too sporty and seems to have a good balance of boys and girls. There’s plenty of sport for those who like it but no over emphasis on it. Have a look at St Edward’s.

This is why you research schools!

Independent schools also offer limitless opportunities for engagement in extra-curricular activities - music, singing, drama, science clubs, volunteering, D of E … In addition to a generally wider range of ancient and modern foreign language options. And more freedom to teach beyond the curriculum. And a constant roster of well known speakers (business people, academics, film directors, sports stars …) giving talks and seminars. And constant competition in every area.

This is what they offer. If these aren’t what you want for your children then it’s sensible to consider whether an independent school is actually the best choice. Any fee paying school that offers small classes and nothing more probably isn’t worth paying for.

It's all rather circular however - girls get sent to girls schools because there aren't suitable ratios at the co-ed schools and so girls get sent to girls schools...

You're very wrong there. I send my daughter to an all girls independent. When I looked at schools I deliberately excluded co-ed, why? Because girls benefit from single sex education and I wanted her to be in an environment that benefits her, not the boys (who benefit from co-ed at least so far as research indicates). Parental choice dictates the split of male/female.

Maybe try Wellington college? Good all round school, not sure on the gender split but my younger brothers loved their time there.

I’m in the Home Counties so not your preferred area but almost all the co-Ed schools are single sex and it takes time for them to become 50/50. I’d be happy with 60:40 if everything else about the school was right for my DC.

Funnily enough, our catchment state school for DS is 20 boys and 10 girls. Single form entry. Not ideal but what can the school do?

We’ve sent DS to a boys school as it suited his needs best. It’s great because he doesn’t suffer with the silly ‘boys are badly behaved, boys don’t like dancing’ stuff.

I would argue all co-od schools are sexist.
Boys do better at co-od, girls do better at single sex.
If it was the other way round I bet most schools would still be single sex.
Considering how disadvantaged girls and women are, why not let us have the advantage for education?
Significantly safer too.

I'd go for an all girls school in a heartbeat OP. If I could pay, it would never be for a co-od.

Thank you Housetreecar. Other comments have also raised the fact that the 60/40 ratio is due to the prevalence of single-sex girls schools over boys. It is relieving to hear the those ratios are not necessarily due to a bias of the (co-ed) school. I also prefer co-ed, but would prefer true co-ed (50/50) if possible. I find the universal 60/40 ratios odd. As some commentators have raised, in London where we've been living the ratios are 50/50. All things being equal - girls shouldn't have to go to single-sex schools to get better outcomes.

Well, all other things aren’t equal, and people are telling you what is considered the best choice in the English independent system.

Unless you’re writing an article for an educational journal it seems a little odd to keep labouring this point!

Somebody once told me, when you are looking at a school ask how many girls are taking physics A-level. Girls are more responsive to good teaching so not only is it an indication of bias in a school but also how good the physics teaching is.

To a certain extent schools can’t do much about intake but they can control what happens when girls are there.

I would look at facilities and outcomes for girls. We looked at former boys schools that took girls and girls facilities were an afterthought. Never looked at ratios. Bigger schools still might have at least 400 girls! That was the total size of DDs girls school. Girls schools provide more dedicated facilities. We didn’t have many issues with unpleasant girls at girls schools. This type of girl can be in any school and they can certainly dress to impress the boys in co Ed schools. There is far more sexual attraction between DC in co Ed schools too.

it’s a mistake to go to any independent school and think you can pick and choose what sports you do when you start. You join in. Do your sport at weekends. However I would expect pitches and sports readily available for girls. But no one can expect every sport to be covered.

OP, with the best of intentions, you seem very prone to jumping to pretty wild conclusions. I think you need to be more critical in the way you read and hear information, then to put all the pieces together to determine the type of context that might be right for your child rather than swinging wildly from one assumption to another.

Our children have so many interests (some of them physical but not on the assigned list of team sports) and so little time. I believe strongly in the virtues of physical exercise, but it seems a shame to force every child to spend so much time on such a narrow selection of activities

Given that you didn’t know that indie schools have a strong sports focus, I hope you dont mind my assuming that you probably also don’t have a context in which to quantify how much they do.

Firstly, you say they spend “so much time” on sports, but all core sports are done within the school day and not at the expense of other subjects and activities (for which there is also plenty of scheduled time). For example, my DS has two triple or three double lessons of sport a week (out of 40 lessons). Do you think that’s a lot? He also has around 8 that are dedicated to a combination of art, tech and music. They then all play sport on Saturday mornings (which is normal for all schools). So the only extra time is on Saturdays and if you’re not willing to participate in that, then private schools are not for you. On top of that, the only people who spend extra time doing sport are the top teams, or the extracurricular sports eg climbing, table tennis, gymnastics etc, which are optional to join not forced. So exactly what part of this is too much? Many extracurricular activities take place at lunchtime too, and they’re hugely popular. Kids wouldn’t do them if they weren’t. Perhaps a way to address this is to ask for a sample timetable to see how much of a focus there is on what’s right for you.

Secondly, sports are not a “narrow selection of activities” at all… they do a different sport each term, not every lesson is dedicated to the team sport, there’s also PE, athletics, swimming, all sorts of constantly changing options. You say your DC are into some physical activities, in that case I’m sure they’d find something they would enjoy. Again, ask each school what their core sports are and what extra curricular options there are (and when). What fixtures are those in lower teams expected to participate in and when?

Lastly, you say that they are “forced” to participate. How is this different to a sporty child being forced to participate in ten academic GCSEs rather than maybe four or five for example? Schools are there to teach a broad range of skills to a broad range of children, and to give them chances they wouldn’t normally look for themselves. Team sports are taught to develop personal skills not just physical.

I’m glad that this thread is informative for you, but like it say, I would just caution you with making such huge assumptions as you embark upon your decision process.

Lastly, don’t forget that the calendar at independent schools is VERY short. So whilst the kids are busy in term times, on average they’ll have somewhere between 20-22 weeks off a year, plenty of time for you to focus on other things.

There are some generalisations on here! The independent school my DC goes to is co-ed, 60:40 because there are a few single sex girls schools locally, but no boys schools. Numbers of girls are still increasing so I imagine this ratio will eventually become more even. In London there would be way more applications than places available so they can ensure an even split if they wish. Not the case for some of the more rural schools.

On the subject of sport I can tell you that the three biggest independent schools near me all do things differently from each other! DC's school, co-ed day and boarding, loads of choices. 4 compulsory sports slots every week (plus a PE lesson) and they get to choose what they do. They DO NOT have to do the traditional team sports. Really strong teams competing every week for those that do though. Others can choose from swimming, badminton, fencing, squash, dance, circuit training (older ones), rowing, cross country running and more. Cricket and football for girls as well as the usual sports. They usually mix and match more than one sport if they don't want to do the team sports. There's something for everyone and no pressure for those who don't want to compete. There's also an activities programme where they can opt for outdoor activities like canoeing, mountain biking etc or other things like volunteering or specific skills.

Local girls only day school is very traditional. Netball, hockey, rounders, tennis and not much else.

Local very academic day and boarding school doesn't do much in the way of sports matches, it's mainly for recreation. They have to do a session every week but some will choose to do more. The sportier ones tend to do sport outside school.

Good luck finding one that suits your DC.

This. I really don’t think it’s sexism.

Yes. The prevalence and popularity of single-sex schools for girls (but not for boys) - which has been mentioned a lot on this thread - and the fact girls even get "better outcomes" at single-sex schools rather prove your point.

However, girls emerge from school into a "co-ed" environment, and work (if they choose to work/have a career) in that environment for decades. Co-ed schools best represent that environment .. so I am torn.

Not much seems to have changed since I was at school, which is rather disappointing...

The difficulty is that independent schools can’t completely control their intake. We started in Nursery with an absolute 50:50 split but by Year 8 it is 75:25 boys to girls. This is simply due to more girls leaving and more boys joining, though you’d hope that the school tries to manage it. The year below are the opposite and there is a younger year group (possibly Year 2) where the national birth rate for boys was much higher apparently and the school reflects that.

My point being that no school can guarantee 50:50 continuously.

I also agree that there are more single sex girls schools around us locally. The reality of this means that actually we have at least one co-ed where it is easier for girls to get in as they want to balance the year groups out.

However, our school has consistently worked to ensure that the girls are treated fairly and well, this is partly where the smaller class sizes come in.

The difficulty is that independent schools can’t completely control their intake. We started in Nursery with an absolute 50:50 split but by Year 8 it is 75:25 boys to girls. This is simply due to more girls leaving and more boys joining, though you’d hope that the school tries to manage it. The year below are the opposite and there is a younger year group (possibly Year 2) where the national birth rate for boys was much higher apparently and the school reflects that.

My point being that no school can guarantee 50:50 continuously.

I also agree that there are more single sex girls schools around us locally. The reality of this means that actually we have at least one co-ed where it is easier for girls to get in as they want to balance the year groups out.

However, our school has consistently worked to ensure that the girls are treated fairly and well, this is partly where the smaller class sizes come in.

Yes. The prevalence and popularity of single-sex schools for girls (but not for boys) - which has been mentioned a lot on this thread - and the fact girls even get "better outcomes" at single-sex schools rather prove your point.

However, girls emerge from school into a "co-ed" environment, and work (if they choose to work/have a career) in that environment for decades. Co-ed schools best represent that environment .. so I am torn.

Not much seems to have changed since I was at school, which is rather disappointing.

The 2 Premier public schools in Norwich are NHS4G & NS. They vary about who gets the best results. NHS4G does not admit boys. So the boys mostly go to NS, instead. Yes it's definitely sexism -- discrimination against the boys.

Teen DD enjoyed having such a large & delectable selection of lads to choose from at NS.

Right, got it.

So basically you want all the benefits of single sex private education in a co-ed environment with no sport.

Anything else is sexist, old fashioned and outdated.

Good luck and let us know if you find it!

(But only a 50:50 coed environment)

The thing I find interesting about these threads (just been on another about boarding) is how much emphasis is placed on school
If independent they are only there for 8 months of the year, you still have a third of each year to influence their outcomes outside of this.
What you do outside of school I think it what makes more a difference eg the child who js nationally relevant or the one who is up at the stables at the weekend or organising parties for her peers or running a business selling on depop or whatever

You could look at international schools if you want a completely different model. There’s one near us, it does the IB and is super sporty (but not very academic). The problem with that though is that most of the kids spend all their school holidays overseas and families are very transient, so friendships are hard to maintain.

I bet she did - good point 😂! Yes I agree it's not fair the boys can't go to the "better" school. Another reason we favour co-ed.