Concerned UK "Co-Ed" Independent Schools are Sexist

[squiffymum]

Dear Mumsnet

Apologies for the somewhat inflammatory subject line...

We're currently applying for independent co-ed schools and I've just discovered that pretty much all of them have a 60/40 boy to girl ratio, rather than being truly co-ed (50/50).

Frankly, I'm deeply upset and pretty disgusted by this. It's 2022, not 1822. When I try and unpick the reasons for this ratio... it's sexism, plain and simple. And we're sending a signal to school-age students that this is acceptable and normal? I asked one of the schools for the rationale: it was "so that the boys aren't dominated". As parents of a daughter, are we truly expected to stump up independent fees (for the same fees as the boys) for her to be "dominated"?

Also, it also presumably means it's harder for girls to get into these schools than boys. How is this even legal - surely it's discriminatory?

Is anyone else upset by this, or am I all alone in my outrage? ;-)

(Background is - we're moving out of London and wish to send our daughter (ten) and later our son (still only seven) to an independent school - ideally, the same one. They're currently in the public/state system, however we feel they'll benefit from smaller class sizes. We are looking across a wide area of the South West, from Portsmouth to Bath - even up to Cheltenham. I can't believe we are willing to pay good money but there are no options that aren't single sex or effectively single sex ("co-ed" schools with 60/40 boy/girl ratios are boys schools that accept girls to my mind). Per the above - it's 2022!)

Thanks, again I had no idea, another very helpful insight! (Another comment mentioned research in Australia showed parents there spend more on their sons' than their daughters' education - perhaps at play here? 🙂)

parents there spend more on their sons' than their daughters' education - perhaps at play here?

I feel like there really isn’t a huge amount of critical thinking going on here….

Yes, for sure. I've never had any suspicion that schools are actively selecting boys over girls- the make-up of the school reflects the applicants. There are loads of reasons I can think of why parents might prioritise independent schools for boys more than girls (from "boys are more important" all the way to "girls are brighter and more hardworking, and don't need the extra support") but it's the parents making these choices, not the schools.

Most independent schools (apart from the most prestigious or most academically selective) are struggling for numbers. They're not really turning anyone away!

Dauntseys school? Has a 50/50 split and good rep locally
Westonbirt school - recently switched to co-Ed from all girls.

Hmm I wasn't aware of that either. (I have learnt a lot from this thread!) They're both strong short and middle distance runners, but have shown zero interest in team sports. We're therefore trying to steer clear of the more sporty schools.

Thank you - both also in quite good locations for us! I think we had skipped Westonbirt as we had assumed it was a girls' school. The idea of a girls' school switched to co-ed is appealing.

KES in Bath year 7 was 50:50 this year. Their aim is to keep it that way I believe so although higher up school ratios are not quite even they will be.

Thanks so much for this, and for the link which is extremely useful. I'm really taken aback by the sporting aspect, which I hadn't realised. Our kids aren't sporty.. but nevertheless...

Yes, frequent team sports in many independent schools are often compulsory (including after school and weekend matches) and different by sex, as PPs say. Old fashioned to say the least!

There are lots of 50/50 independent schools in the south east m, just presumably not in your preferred locations.

Soundofshuna, thank you. This is fantastic to hear, as KES was actually one of the schools we had our eye on. We've already met the principal and looked around it. The school made a great impression on us.

Being even LESS sporty than kids, I would have hated that 😆I guess it's good from an exercise perspective however! Yes, we need to look south west due to my job unfortunately.

We're therefore trying to steer clear of the more sporty schools.

Which suggests:

a) that you really haven’t grasped the ethos of English independent education. It’s very much work hard, play hard; and character building / resilience through teamwork and striving for excellence. All of which is practised through vigorous and plentiful competitive sport. Regular physical activity is also considered good for mental health and cognitive function. And makes people attractive. And enhances confidence - which is the thing that’s supposed to underpin independent school pupils’ progression through university interviews, exams, job applications, etc.

and

b) that you will be excluding pretty much all of the most sought after schools from your search. Which would be a pity. I wouldn’t worry about the sporting emphasis - the compulsory element gradually decreases as pupils rise through the school years. But - compared to state schools selling off their playing fields, and discouraging competition through misunderstanding of pedagogy and child psychology - plentiful, well taught sport in spacious (and pretty) surroundings is part of what independent school parents pay for. You need to understand this, or you will pay out a whole load of money and end up confused and dissatisfied.

We're therefore trying to steer clear of the more sporty schools.

• should have been bolded above!

Sure you can't relocate to Sevenoaks?! Co-ed for decades and a 50:50 split. Does now have a male head, but had a (brilliant) female head for nearly 20 years previously. Rest of the senior team is weighted towards women. Team sports are v inclusive (still fun if you're rubbish!), lots of individual sport, running v stong (cross country track on site, path through into a massive deer park where they go to run). V modern and liberal - sounds like that's important to you. Sounds like a great fit. Boarding an option??

Yes, frequent team sports in many independent schools are often compulsory (including after school and weekend matches) and different by sex, as PPs say. Old fashioned to say the least!

Do you mean that regular sports is old fashioned or different by sex? I cannot see in any world how having good sports provision is old fashioned, even those who consider themselves “unsporty” can find something they enjoy. As for different sports by sex - name me one sport that doesn’t differentiate its teams by sex?? All the coed schools round here offer girls football as an extracurricular if not an option, but more frequently now as an option… and cricket is Increasingly becoming the norm. There aren’t many girls who want to play eg rugby, but for those that do again the benefit is that the school can usually add it as a club if they want to as they have the resources.

One of the reasons that there aren’t many outliers is that they all play fixtures against other schools, part of the foundation of the system, and to have other schools to play against they all need to play the same sports.

I totally agree with @TottersBlankly about the benefits. One of my DC was not naturally sporty from a young age but he has absolutely thrived doing sport at private school and developed skills and confidence we would never have expected.

What about Sherborne Boys and Girls. Single sex education but close enough that the opposite sex isn’t a complete mystery. And term dates align so you can have children in both. Traditionally big on music as well as sport. As others have said sport almost unavoidable in these schools.

We decided against private for Dd (now 12) because of the sport - and so the hours - involved in all the schools we liked the look of.

Not because Dd isn’t sporty but because she is. Dd is (as my brother described it the other day) “nationally relevant” at a sport. Unfortunately that sport is not hockey, netball or tennis. If she had gone to the private school we liked then she would have spent many many hours playing hockey / netball / tennis. Which is fine in a world with infinite hours. She likes hockey / netball / tennis. She is sporty - she likes all sport. And she is good at hockey / netball / tennis. But she doesn’t love them. She loves her sport. And if she had spent the hours on hockey / netball / tennis then that would be less time training for her sport.

I mean that the team sports - taught and for which matches are played with other schools - are often different for boys and girls. With perhaps a token ‘add on’ of the odd football session for girls or hockey for boys, in addition. I regard that as old fashioned/sexist.

the DC don’t get to choose what they enjoy, participation in the sports for their sex is essentially compulsory.

Tbh that was not our experience but maybe it is cultural particularly in schools which were originally boys and went coed in late 20th century to maintain numbers overall. It works both ways though, two former girls schools in our area are now coed but have struggled to gain a truly coed image. Dc school was the result of a merger of a boys and girls school rather than one previous single sex going coed and is perhaps more balanced as a result.

I used to work at one of the schools mentioned on this thread. The ratio can vary enormously from year to year anyway, so even if you find a 50:50 school, a particularly yeargroup can be weighted one way or another. Especially for smaller schools, a small change in the makeup of the yeargroup can make a big difference.
check what the ratio of the right yeargroup is as well as the school. we had one year group which at one point had only 4 girls in and really struggled to attract any other girls because why would you?!

on the sporting side, my kids do I think 4-5 hours of sport per week plus another hour of dance and another hour of 'activities' which may be sporty or not - they change each term. And then any matches can be extra on top of that. The team sports are very traditional, hockey, netball, rounders, tennis for girls. Hockey, rugby, cricket for boys. All the independent schools nearby do the same sports at the same times and play matches against each other.
my DS was not keen on sport at all when he first went but has now grown to love it and joined additional sporting clubs outside school as well.

I definitely don't grasp the ethos of English independent education. I'm from New Zealand (where schools admittedly also have a strong focus on sport). I've lived here for twenty years but still don't have a feel for UK schooling, independent or otherwise. I'm finding it very hard to navigate. My husband did have a classic English independent education (boarding from age 7). He was the one who advised we steer clear of the more "sporty" schools. Although our children show no interest in team sports, we're not dodging them altogether, it's just not a priority for them (which may also change). We're very outdoorsy (hiking, orienteering, swimming etc.) and do a lot of exercise - the children are both strong competitive runners. I guess I kind of hoped they could just go for a jog instead of playing lacrosse, but perhaps not. I had also hoped, possibly incorrectly, that there were good independent schools along a spectrum to suit a variety of types of children. The main reasons we are willing to outlay the expense of a private school are the small class sizes (very important to us) and teaching.

That’s certainly a consideration, Mumoftwoinprimary! Over the decade I’ve been discussing schools on MN it’s apparent that a sporty independent school isn’t necessarily the best choice for a ‘nationally relevant’ sporting child.

One other thing I was reminded of by SonicWomb’s post is that the very full, all embracing sports calendar at independent schools enables even the reluctant F Team participants to play against teams from all the other independent schools within about two hours’ drive. To host teams and to visit other schools for games. In this way pupils meet masses of other pupils. So when they get to university they find their halls and seminars and sports fields full of people they recognise. This is considered a huge advantage - and causes resentment in many state school pupils for whom these pre-formed relationships seem like exclusive cliques.

I am not saying this is a good thing. Obviously. But it is part of what distinguishes fee paying schools (particularly the wealthy, well known schools) from the state school experience. You are paying for your child to feel immediately at home at university because they’ll know so many people through participation in school sports.

There are more girls only schools than boys only school. Boys schools tend to go co-Ed, girls schools tend to stay single sex or close down! 60/40 is a pretty even split to be fair.

i have intentionally only chosen co-Ed schools all the way through, I passionately disagree with single sex education and I can assure that in my experience co-Ed independent schools are not sexist and the children are treated as people not defined by their sex

As a PP said, don't discount the benefits of sport for the non sporty. I have one very unsporty boy who now thinks games days are the best days of the week. If you're working very hard and immersed in a lot of academia, then sport is a great antidote to that. And team sports really do boost morale and friendship, as long as the school culture embraces and celebrates the less-than-talented. I admit I have been a total convert to this position, having previously felt the same as you.

@TottersBlankly what a load of rubbish. That’s true for kids who like sports but those who don’t, will avoid them and resent any matches they have to play in just as they would elsewhere and the pressure to play sport becomes a torture.

my kids know children at all different universities through their out of school extra curricular and certainly there are 3 or 4 unis where they know up to 100 people from home. That’s not necessarily a good thing.