Orchestra (French horn player) at WinColl vs Sevenoaks School

[Next11]

This is a separate post in addition to "Fencing at WinColl vs Sevenoaks School" as we thought that these are niche extras and parents with experience in one may not have experience in the other.

DS is a 11yo musician and keen to join a school (and municipality) orchestra(s). We are in the process of making a decision between the above two senior schools (age 13-18) and orchestra provisioning is another important consideration.

He is very musical, but more of a generalist (grade 4 piano, grade 3 horn) so likely middle set and we were wondering if anyone has personal experience at any of these schools.

1, How competitive is the entry to the school orchestra, or musical scholarship. Are there different sets for different levels so that anyone can play at some school orchestra?
2, How often does the school orchestra meet per week? Does it depend on the set, music scholarship, etc?
3, How many internal and external concerts in an academic year?
4, How supportive is the school to allow a musician to join the municipality orchestra (say once a week) as an extracurricular, assuming academics are fine.
5, Anything else worth considering?

I guess you arent living in the uk? Why not ask the individual schools,they are the best place to answer,but with those grades dont necessarily expect youll be in the main orchestra-those grades certainly wouldnt qualify you as "very musical" at any schools Im aware of..and you certainly wouldnt be anywhere near Scholarship level

To give you an idea of musical ability regarded at scholarship level I know that at Sevenoaks a few years ago a dd had a scholarship via the piano and was at a level beyond Grade 8 before she joined the school - ie age 10.

Saturday school may well limit attendance at what you describe as a "municipality" orchestra. High level out of school music education in SE tends to take place in London at weekends and is competitive entry. Even in private schools music tends to coexist with academics, sport, drama, co curricular activities etc and musicians are not timetabled separately nor given specific status or concessions. Look at the calendars of respective schools to see what performance opportunities are shown and the website or email Head of Music. 3 inclusive concerts plus scholars recitals and one or two tours per year was typical at dc school, but Covid may well have changed that.

I agree with previous posters that the schools themselves are best placed to answer your very specific questions about music (and fencing).

Both the schools you name indicate that for music scholarship candidates, a minimum of Grade 6 standard is expected on the first study instrument. For a less common instrument like French horn you might still be offered an audition with a slightly lower standard (say, Grade 5), but it depends on the calibre of other applicants. Winchester is a popular destination for choristers, whose standard of musicianship is often very high, and there is a lot of competition for music scholarships.

It isn't clear why you think your DS would benefit from joining a local orchestra outside school. Most schools with a thriving co-curricular music programme will provide plenty of opportunities for participation in range of ensembles.

Have you considered Kings Canterbury? Very strong in fencing and has an excellent music department.

I don’t mean to be harsh - but there is literally no way on earth your son will be getting a music scholarship at those schools with a grade 4 and 3. At 11 a grade 4 will be considerably average for music, if not below.

To be fair, most schools will consider trajectory as well as the Grade level obtained when assessing potential music scholars. A Grade 3 or 4 achieved after 6 months learning an instrument (especially a less common instrument like French horn) will tend to be looked on more favourably than the same grade achieved after 3-4 years of playing.

True @Vaduz. But these things are competitive, French Horn not that unusual and proven ability may be higher valued that "potential" and risk of short term enthusiasm for learning. Scholarships often have strings attached, performance and regular rehearsal commitments, and tend to have low monetary value but may include lessons

French horn is really not uncommon. With a tuba you might have hope with a grade 3, but a French horn is a popular instrument so it’s really not going to happen.

Oh absolutely, I agree @LIZS - achievement will usually trump potential when there is a lot of competition for scholarships. And I don't expect either school has any difficulty attracting exceptionally talented musicians.

hi Next11, your son sounds very well rounded with his fencing and music. Do you currently have offers from both schools? I think both schools select for the 13+ entry in year 6 when your son is 10/11. If so, the registrars will help you with detailed questions and seek to help you make your important decision.

My older DS had a music scholarship at a school of similar standing -age 10 expectation was more like minimum G6 standard on main instrument and for 13 plus entry it was more like G8 Distincition on main instrument (for scholarship).

Having said that his school encouraged every musical child to partake in as many orchestras as they wanted to and there were loads! This chamber group, piano duet for scholars, multiple choirs, modern groups etc and if you wanted to, there were multiple concerts each term. For example, music teachers sign you up to all the informal recital concerts before the exams to be ready and practise performance with the accompanist. I am sure if you are DS is willing to participate he will be given ample opportunity to do so, at both these schools because they are musical schools, but his level is very likely too low for a music scholarship. My 8 year old has already done G4 on violin and doing G4 piano this term and he is by no means even that good. He has now started singing too. I suspect if we were to go down the independent route and if I did push him hard to get to G7 or 8 level by age 10, then he would be in chance for a scholarship at a school like Sevenoaks (depending on the competition that year). But in his state primary class alone he isn’t even the best because we have lots of professional musician parents so my kids are quite average.
Plus if your child is a fencing prodigy he wouldn’t really have the time to commit to being a music scholar plus all the extra music obligations that might entail?
So to summarise, I really wouldn’t worry about your DS not being given lots of music opportunities at both of these schools if he decided he wants to participate and is proactive. Typically you have to worry more that they don’t put themselves forward enough and that the schools don’t necessarily push them into it.

Thanks for the ideas. Never really thought he would be music scholar material, only curious if it might incur any concrete advantages, or just obligations if the offering is generous anyways.

We consciously encouraged DS to try many instruments at an early age (in additon to piano and horn, he's done at least one year of guitar, euphonium, singing too) his piano level is from 2019 so likely much higher now, as he hasn't done any exams since Covid. Horn is a very recent additon, but progressing very fast.

For us, specialising him too early in an instrument (we parents like) is the same as making his decisions for him. Something we would rather avoid. It's his life, not ours.

@Nolanscrack Yes, we have been away from the UK for several years on a diplomatic assignment. Do you have anything against expats or just foreigners?

Thanks @LIZS I'll look into it

Thanks @Vaduz I'll look into Kings Canterbury but aren't we too late already?

This is it, when I said musical I referred to absolute pitch, ease of learning, pace of progression and general commitment (albeit generalist). It appears however that scholarship has limited advantages, but I'll ask the schools

Thanks @Abuildingwith4wallsandtmrinsid this is really helpful indeed!

It would appear that if opportunities abound, then a music scholarship will likely offer limited tangible benefits anyhow, right?

I agree that there should be plenty of music opportunities within the school. I attended an ensemble concert at Winchester last term that had a junior and senior group of french horns playing, for example. My impression is that if they want to play there will be a group to join, even if they are not going to be in an orchestra.

With regards to music scholarships and related awards - it is well worth discussing with music departments directly well in advance. They like to meet children early and then see the progress they have made. We had good advice from several schools with our children. If your child does not look likely to be of a standard for an award they would guide you honestly, if they see something they like they may suggest what progress they would hope to see over another year or 18 months as appropriate.

I'll look into Kings Canterbury but aren't we too late already?

I think Kings is one of the few schools that still does not preselect in Y6 - although if DC are at Junior Kings they are given a firm steer as to whether the school will be appropriate. But if your DS has offers from Winchester and Sevenoaks he should have no difficulties academically. I would definitely give it a shot as even if they say they are full now, some children will drop out between now and September as a result of Ukraine and Covid problems in China.

Music at King’s is first class - orchestra, plus lots of different ensembles and bands targetted at different levels. Music scholars will have G8 plus on one instrument and probably at least 4/5 plus on a second when they join though. Children play in the National Youth Orchestra as well if they are selected. Fencing is also very good and a lot of musicians choose fencing as their main sport as it is easier on the fingers than rugby.

Kings is very popular with FCDO families because of the full boarding. The downside is that if you are back on a home posting, there is no weekly boarding and the expectation is that all boarders will be in at the weekends. If you are looking at a day place though that is less of a problem.

French horn is really not a popular instrument especially bearing in mind that for the larger scale works you ideally need eight of them. I don't know a school that doesn't have to bring in outsiders to beef up the horn section at concerts.

Personally I wouldn’t look at Kings if you have offers from Winchester College and Sevenoaks. The former two are more academic, especially Winchester College. Sevenoaks is harder to get into than Kings. Music is very good at all 3 schools. If you had a singer then I would say the cathedral singing would make a difference, but you didn’t mention this.

Sevenoaks is mixed and modern and secular - no chapel obligation! IB is great too. My DD has musical friends at Sevenoaks and they are very happy.

I think you need to work out if your DS and you will be happier at Winchester College (more traditional, stuffy, more of an intellectual Oxbridge atmosphere) vs Sevenoaks (lots of very bright kids too especially in Sixth Form, but liberal, forward thinking). I think they are very different schools.
Did you consider Eton because I would have considered that for an all rounder who doesn’t mind single sex and is also academic and really into extra curricular.
I would also think ahead as to what your DS might be like at 16/17/18 in choosing schools. So by all means consider the exact fencing offering but also the actual ethos of the school. Winchester is also about to go through a lot of chances with opposition from some vocal parents.

@Abuildingwith4wallsandtmrinsid that’s really interesting. So if you had say a Grade 8 singer in Y8 would you say King’s rather than Sevenoaks?

@yodaforpresident - the head of music at Sevenoaks is also really into singing but they don’t have a cathedral like Kings. So if the child in question wants to do singing in the cathedral then I would choose Kings. For a boy who is a chorister I personally would always choose Winchester because it is just really special for singing and with a grade 8 I would then be thinking of diploma etc already and Winchester would be very well placed for that (peer group et al).

Thanks @Pythonesque I haven't really thought of that! Less than 7 months to go now until scholarship application, but we'll definitely get in touch with the music departments to try and secure meetings

Thanks Jacinda. You're spot on, we would have ideally (strongly) preferred if WinCol and Sevenoaks were weekly boarding.

Do you know any other noteworthy WEEKLY school within 90mins of London, which is (i) academic enough, say op 100 (ii) strongly support fencing, with teams in all three weapons and (iii) offer a breadth of musical orchestras, not just for gr8 career musicians

P.s. Tonbridge comes to mind, but we never applied, as the reputation wS that it's very alpha with a bit of a lad culture (bullying is an o erused word) going on

Good to know. Thanks for the update!