2: SW London Girls' Private & Grammar - applying for year 7 in 2022

[Emo76]

Continued

Ah @Emo76 ditto! The prep said that tutoring was not necessary, and that we needed to trust the process. To be honest we were never going to be the sort of family making the kids prep over Christmas, but I wish we’d maybe done a little bit more. We would not tutor them in secondary school unless there are specific concerns.

@LondonMum20222 Yes, she is. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but she certainly doesn’t know of it. It may also help that they only set for Maths, so maybe it’s less visible than in schools that set for more subjects? And anyway, if a DC is having trouble, there’s so much support available at school that I can’t imagine how tutoring could be better than extra help from the teacher who is actually teaching the syllabus and knows the DC well.

@HighRopes That's always been my view of tutoring in prep schools - you actually risk undercutting what the teachers are doing in school by getting a third party (who doesn't know exactly what your child has learnt, and what methods are used) to intervene. Sounds like there's really great support at SPGS - really good to hear.

We didn't tutor for last year's 11 plus and DD underperformed. We had a few offers and almost went with one,but decided to abandon the whole thing and go for a local state school and had to pay a hefty sum of money for a whole term and also paid a deposit too.
Our prep also said no tutoring while knowing full well how common it is. So to those doing the 11 plus. DO TUTOR. I hate that I'm saying that but that's how your child will have an edge and will have a chance to get in in today's insane climate of competition for these schools with extortionate fees.
We do not regret our decision one bit but still reeling from all the money spent, bad advice, lack of teaching at the prep and the whole dishonesty of the 11 plus.

There are even tutors to increase CATs scores I learnt 😳🥴
Stupid system and totally ludicrous.

Hi All,

Applying for 2023 entry and have a silly question to ask.

Looking at PHS registration form and it asks for a school report. Did any one attach one? (I understand they ask the school anyway) and did you include a personal statement or additional comments.

I didn’t attach anything to the PHS application, from memory. But I do remember having to print a copy of her Y5 report and post it to one school. I did a brief covering letter explaining that her school didn’t provide references for anyone, it wasn’t just her!

Hi @EmotiveBubblez from memory I think I may have attached and submitted my daughter’s report from end of year 5

Thank you @HighRopes and @RM46 for responding. I have missed it but what schools are your daughters attending?

This whole process seems so overwhelming - do you have any tips to share?

No problem @EmotiveBubblez My daughter is currently attending a local state school, I found the 11+ process very overwhelming I agree and pretty stressful at times (this is my first time going through it, I have another daughter in Year 4 and have learnt a lot along the way that’ll help me when it comes to her turn!). Thankfully after all the hard work and prep, we have accepted a place for September at SPGS, which my daughter is super excited for so it all turned out well. Happy to chat if you want about the process/tips - feel free to DM me x

@RM46 Congrats on your daughter going to SPGS (this is fabulous news).

This is my first time going through it too. Our state school has not been as helpful as I hoped but very well versed in the state school sectors and/ catholic sector too.

@EmotiveBubblez My dd is also at a state primary and will be heading to SPGS for Y7. In terms of tips, I think reading MN and not being at a school where many DC try for independent schools helps a lot. The comparison and lots of chatting about it between parents and DC in preps sounds like it makes it more stressful.

Practically, make a spreadsheet so you don’t miss any dates or forms. Go to some open days in Y4 and more in Y5, so you can narrow it down. As it’s so early, you can use Tiffin stage 1 as a diagnostic, it’s relatively rare that a DC gets through the WHS or PHS process if they don’t get to Tiffin stage 2, that would be a sign to add some easier schools in to the mix if you haven’t already. Sutton High offers before Christmas, and for me that’s a strong reason to apply as the potential of a certain places is helpful psychologically in January / February.

Most of all, they’re all good schools. It’ll work out fine. I worked really hard to model a calm, it’ll all be fine approach to my dd, and avoid buying in to the ‘it’s so stressful and awful’ hype which (to my mind) makes DC more anxious and less likely to be happy with the outcome.

I was far too relaxed for a west London prep school. All the tutoring that became apparent in year 5 and was really common was a culture shock for me- felt like it was Taiwan!
I truly believe an able child with switched on parents will fare better in the exams for the top schools coming from a state primary school. They will be more relaxed more oblivious to the competitive nature of the 11 plus and not be around such sheltered children with obsessive parents. They will also not have their schooling disrupted with boring prep.
Having said all that we are delighted with our state secondary school and so glad we ditched private education because of the experience was so awful at the prep and it had affected my daughter that badly. We should have stayed at our lovely cosy good rated state primary and tutored lightly for the 11 plus. Moving to a prep I did not expect the need for tutors, or knew the anxiety this would cause amongst children like mine who didn't have one.
I really hope something changes in these preps and they really, genuinely frown upon the tutoring and teach the class based on not having a tutor, focusing on building up those children, ignoring those seemingly ploughing ahead and leaving them to it as it's not fair on those who don't . Those children will need tutors throughout their school life. It's ridiculous.

Anyway best of luck to all. The school journey should be enjoyable and enriching no matter where they go.

I just hope these prep heads and teachers really get a handle on this tutoring nonsense because it's damaging in so many ways and unfair for the entry process
Tutors should only be needed for those at state for familiarisation.

They will also not have their schooling disrupted with boring prep.

Unfortunately a state primary means spending the vast majority of Year 6 preparing for SATs which is even more boring. I speak from experience!

Is that right? I still don't think they will be any where as bad as 11 plus prep!
But I'm more concerned about the mental impact. Some girls were vomiting before sitting their ISEB tests which suggests heightened stress levels.

If prep headteachers and their staff can demonstrate a genuine negative attitude towards tutoring nd focus on building up the untutored I will be far less negative and sceptical about the 11 plus entry process. In my experience they don't at all. All they care about is their very skewed exit results. Prep schools in London are a scam if they don't stamp it out.

That sounds awful. Poor girls!

It definitely wasn't as bad as that for my child who found all the work easy and was just incredibly bored all year (I don't think they learnt a single new thing after autumn half term as from then on it was revision and tests most of the time). DD got very very bored of practising things she knew very well and there was very little extension work which had not been the case in previous years.

But it was really terribly stressful for some of the children who were finding things harder, especially those with additional needs. If you are getting 10 or 20% in tests and the teacher is telling the class that she wants to see people getting 100% that must be pretty demoralising. And when my daughter actually did get 100% in a practice paper, she then got stressed that she would not be able to repeat it. The atmosphere in class was not good - and this was a school which had previously seemed very nurturing and child-centred.

For me it was a wake up call. I'd started the process thinking we would probably take the grammar place if we got one but ended it deciding that I didn't want DD to be a number in a system and opting for an independent.

There must be schools that handle it all better but I was pretty shocked by how brutal SATs was.

You're right the SATs are brutal especially for those who struggle at state school. I would scrap those too if I was in charge. Let the children just learn and love school and fall in love with learning and find their way in life. Many children develop at later stages.
There is no such thing as a perfect school but many state schools are pretty damn good in London and there is no need for all this pressure and arms race to make it in life. I was very disturbed by the tutoring, the blind eye taken by the school and the lengths people go to to get their child ahead. Not for us.

Let the children just learn and love school and fall in love with learning and find their way in life. Many children develop at later stages.

Hear hear!

Thank you @HighRopes and eglantine7 for your responses.

I think it is important for the children not to be overwhelmed and for stress to be managed carefully during this process.

All comments are appreciated.

Our state primary does spend all of year 6 prepping for SATS

I’ve been through the 11+ independent school exams system twice now, both times coming from state primary schools & receiving offers from several schools. We did use a tutor but mainly for practice in how to answer papers. I was so shocked when I heard the majority of prep school parents were using tutors. Surely that is why they have chosen a prep school - to prep their child for their next school? The other thing that surprised me is how many schools the prep school children sit - 7/8 or more. We only sat 3/4 which seemed plenty with exams/interviews. Spread them out over different abilities expected by the schools. I do believe it is the prep schools’ fault partly for spreading panic. The more schools the children sit, the more potential offers which boost their leavers statistics! I realise there is an anxiety in not getting a place anywhere but there are other options - state schools/prep till 13 and is it worth putting children through so many exams at their age? Schools admissions teams can see right through overprepped children and in my view coming from a state school, where they haven’t been versed in everything, can be an advantage. They are looking for bright kids with potential ability not over rehearsed ones. The prep schools even do interview practise. I just let my children be themselves in the interview rather than spoon fed rehearsed answers. Another thing that shocks me is the tutoring continues at secondary school but that’s another topic! By the way SATS practice at state schools is dull & schools really need to extend brighter pupils as they used to but they have lots of fun in Year 6 too.

I've done both. My DD sat 11+ from a state school and is now at WHS. Year 6 was pretty dull for her, they spent all of year 6 preparing for SATs, all maths and English. Very little music, drama etc and very little stretch for her, she coasted. Because she was already at 'greater depth' at the beginning of the year, she basically hardly learned anything, none of the organisational skills for secondary so transition was interesting! Having said that, she was pretty chilled out and had a lovely time. We picked the private secondary over the grammar for the same reasons as Glaciferous above.

My DS has just sat 11+ from a prep school (moved from the same primary that DD had been for year 5 due to dire experiences during lockdowns). He did have more homework, everything did feel more pressured. He has to organise himself in a way that his sister didn't experience until year 7. But he's happily stretched more than his sister was and now that 11+ is finished, he's having a lovely time doing all sorts e.g. they did a first aid course recently and lots of trips rather than bloody SATs over and over.

Pros and cons to both. The prep have definitely been better at stretching and preventing boredom. They've recognised strengths and weaknesses and helped with both. The state primary was really chilled. The state primary kids likely got very little input during lockdowns, if parents were able to give that input instead they'll be just fine (I wasn't able to due to my job so ended up moving my DS). The prep school kids got their full timetables online during the lockdowns.

@Luckythree22 In the interests of preventing urban myths, prep schools don't encourage (or indeed allow) pupils to sit 7 or 8 schools at 11+. Most prep schools recommend 4 max. I haven't heard of a single child sitting for that many schools - some parents (if they're anxious) might push it to five, but four is standard. All the prep schools heads in London I know would be actively and vocally discouraging parents from entering children for that many 11+ exams precisely because they don't want the children to get stressed out.

From what I've seen - both on here and at my DD's school, and from talking to friends going through the process - it's very rarely children who get stressed about 11+. It's invariably the parents. Whether your child is in state or prep school, they're only going to find the 11+ process stressful if the parents are stressed and anxious about it. (At my DD's school, the students are banned from discussing 11+ at all, so none of the anxiety is coming from them. It's all parents). But I think it's important not to creating a narrative that prep school kids are all entering for 8 or more schools because they're simply not.

Sorry I stand corrected. I have heard of children sitting that many but it’s only from threads on here or overheard when dropping my children at their 11+Exams. Hopefully there aren’t kids doing that many as seems cruel to me.

I know that SATs are stressful for many students, but I do not know why. Primary schools pressure kids to do well in the SATs, when in reality, the tests have no bearing on anything (secondary school choices/outcomes) except that it is a reflection of the teaching in the primary school (and of course DC's attainment at Y6). This needs to explained to DCs. No sweat and no stress in Y6. Majority of the schools will do CAT in Y7 as a benchmark on future attainment in GCSEs/ A levels.

@LondonMum20222 'prep schools heads in London ... actively and vocally discourage parents from entering children for many 11+ exams precisely because they don't want the children to get stressed out' - I do not agree with this. Another reason why prep schools limit the number of schools is also to save face. They want kids applying to 'top' schools to make it to those schools. It is all about reputation. It is like identifying kids who can really make it to top schools. It looks bad on them if a huge proportion of kids reject these top schools when offered.

I think parents have the 'power' to strategise on the number of schools to apply to particularly with the existence of the 11+ consortium, and using some grammar school outcomes as a benchmark of DC's early performance. Yes, the prep school will have CAT scores and stuff, but kids who are in borderline CATs can strategise on school applications. Prep school advise should be taken as 'advise' not the 'end all'. Being 100% reliant on the advise of the prep school's head - just because you have paid the fees - is I think plain daft.

Remember, many school over offer and they have done the maths and statistics on how many will actually accept places. Number of applications do not really have to stop at 4.