Private senior for 'poor kids'

[mynamesbing]

This is a question for relatively un-wealthy parents who send their kids private.

Have you found sending your DC to a private school, setting aside fighting for a bursary or struggling with fees with 3 jobs, debts etc, did you find the social side a real struggle? Has it had an impact on your DC's self image and mental health?

For those that went to private schools from poor backgrounds, has anything negative carried with you from your childhood?

While DC would get great education and they would have earned their place, I worry about the impact on mental health versus the amazing resources and challenges an academic private senior can offer a bright child who happens to be poor. Especially for state primary kids who are used to being the big fish in the small pond.

Sorry, this is applying for a selective private very academic private school in a wealthy part of London, that ranks in the top 10.

My DC went to independent schools on a mix of scholarships and bursaries, we lived in a council house and were on benefits at one point. Socially no issues. The kids didn't care, in fact they thought having parents in ordinary jobs was quite cool..parents were generous and welcoming to us as parents. Think they viewed that we were trying to do the best for our kids. Obviously our lifestyle was a world apart but it honestly didn't matter. I appreciate we may have been lucky!

My children had friends on full bursaries and I don't think it was an issue. Sometimes I would say quietly to my teenager may be offer to pay for the cinema ticket of a particular friend (as we knew they could not easily afford the cinema) but nothing more than that. My children could have gone on every foreign school trip going but hardly went on any ever. I liked it when they went to people in different kinds of homes as I never wanted my 5 to think our fairly large 5 bed detached was normal and how most people live which clearly it is not.

We have a lot of relatively badly off parents many Asian putting 4 famly members' salaries into one private school place as that child is the hope for the future so I think it is different here in London with day fee paying schools than in some other areas of the country but even elsewhere children don't notice. I went to a fee paying school in NE England and was best friends with someone who was probably from the least well off family in the class (rather than the Lady XYZ who was also in my class). It was never an issue.

It's not a issue in London day schools which all have bursary programmes as they are charities etc.

My daughter has been through independent primary school and is now at an independent secondary. We are probably the poorest of the families (I'm a single mum with an average salary). Has never been an issue for any of her friends.

I must say though that it has been an issue at my daughter's horse riding club where the kids are clearly from extremely wealthy families and have been quite catty about having more expensive stuff. But never an issue at school.

Kids don't seem to get around to all that info at day school unless they go to peoples houses.... even boarding schools, if they are not into expensive trainers then the kids don't notice. They all dress the same in slouchy leisure wear!!

Thanks for the replies all.

I most worry about my DC mental health comparing our small council flat to a new friend and seeing their 5 bed detached house for example.

But the facilities and opportunities at the selective private can't compare to what's on offer locally, even if it means just under an hours commute ( another consideration) - moving closer isn't an option given rent/house prices around the school.

I should say we are applying for state also, and unless DC receives full bursary on top of offer, it's all a dream anyway.

I would caution that the older they get, the more your dc will be aware of being the ‘poor’ ones. Their friends probably won’t care, but your dc might find it hard.
I teach at a top private school and some (not all) of the bursary girls get quite self conscious as they get older that they can’t keep up with their friends in terms of holidays, clothes, stuff etc and find it a bit difficult.

@Ohshitiveturnedintomymother

I would caution that the older they get, the more your dc will be aware of being the ‘poor’ ones. Their friends probably won’t care, but your dc might find it hard. I teach at a top private school and some (not all) of the bursary girls get quite self conscious as they get older that they can’t keep up with their friends in terms of holidays, clothes, stuff etc and find it a bit difficult.

Agreed - older kids definitely notice it far more and, IMO, girls feel it more than boys do. A boy who's confident in his physical and/or intellectual prowess will more often be able to laugh off issues aroun who's got the best clothes & so on.

See how you go but it’s a good opportunity for your dc

I do know a full bursary student who’s finished from London day school and I think it went well and was a good decision

A broader range of views is helpful though of course

Don't have knowledge of private sector but when I was in state secondary everyone knew who had the expensive trainers, who had the fake stuff from the market etc. Maybe the differences were less in real terms (don't think anyone ever went on a skiing holiday!) but teenagers can be dicks about the smallest stuff.
I'd just try and build some self confidence in your child and send to the best school you can.
(Disclaimer- I don't have teenagers yet, perhaps they are all lovely now )

@mynamesbing The vast majority of independents have a uniform including the type of shoes they can wear. The second hand uniform sales are usually excellent. When one of mine started at a new prep, we were given some old uniform from a friend which was third hand. It even included a blazer that was no longer part of the uniform, but my DC liked wearing a blazer so wore it. If you qualify for a full bursary, it may cover things like uniform, trips, school coach and lunch.

I wouldn't worry about your DC not having the latest trainers etc. Depending on the independent school, no one will care. Although some schools have their own look so to speak. At one London school all the girls used to be into Pink for a while, but a boarding school we know, lots are into Schoffel gillets (which is expensive). My DC love their scruffy old trainers to death, and will equally wear Shoe Zone 'fake' DMs for £17. Which are far more comfortable than the real thing.

There will always be someone with bigger homes, flasher cars, better holidays, whether at a state school or independent. Our local leafy state primary used to organise their inset days on a Friday so parents could get to their second homes in Norfolk.

I am commenting as a child who went to an independent secondary school from a family who could not afford it.

I think yes it did affect me and my self confidence, and my socialising.

In my school I noticed that it is mixed and some girls were from well off families who's grandparents paid for school, so they were not wealthy but were raised as if they were. Some girls were from farming families who were well off but not snobby as they mixed with a range of people. But I knew I didn't have grandparents who would buy my the latest things, I also felt insecure in social occasions which became a bigger issue as we got older, for example o couldn't justify the cost of buying a posh dress for balls or my boyfriend couldn't afford a tux as we were both struggling. I couldn't do holidays abroad with them, and I actually didn't go to their weddings as I felt I would be out of place.

Whilst I moved in to a not that great flat above a shop after university, they all moved into nice houses in the right part of town that they had help with.
BUT I do think the school gave me opportunities that I wouldn't of had with a state secondary

We're in this kind of position. Considerably less well off than many, if not all, of DD's classmates and it really isn't a problem. Beneath the surface, LOTS of people are scraping the money together from odds and ends, worrying about it, dreading the invoice, grandparents paying etc. So don't imagine that everybody else is just flinging money around.

We had one conversation with dd, which was literally "Why don't we have alpacas and horses like [insert names of SEVERAL kids in her class!!!]?" so we had a chat about career choices and how different families choose to spend their money, their time and ahem their credit rating.

In terms of holidays, DH and I are from different non-UK countries, so holidays involve going back to our home countries etc. and this is also the case for many classmates, so it's not like everybody is going to the Maldives and we go camping in the local swamp or anything. There's a lot of variety there.

We have a very noticeably smaller house than the alpacas and horses families, but I think we have explained that to our kids well. They were HORRIFIED when I showed them what their friends' parents mortgage repayments probably were!

I think how you talk about money is important. Don't brush off their feelings. I probably wouldn't position their better off classmates as "lucky", because that casts you as UNLUCKY and creates an undesireable narrative, maybe.

@mynamesbing

Thanks for the replies all.

I most worry about my DC mental health comparing our small council flat to a new friend and seeing their 5 bed detached house for example.

But the facilities and opportunities at the selective private can't compare to what's on offer locally, even if it means just under an hours commute ( another consideration) - moving closer isn't an option given rent/house prices around the school.

I should say we are applying for state also, and unless DC receives full bursary on top of offer, it's all a dream anyway.

My DC are at a small Private non selective Private Secondary in The North so probably very different to the school you are describing. There are lots of posts like yours on here and I usually say it wont matter and nobody will care BUT that’s comparing DC with large houses with a pool, ponies etc with kids in 3 bed semis in a not so nice area. I think that if this school attracts the super rich you being in a Council flat might be too much of a difference It shouldn’t matter of course but it might and even if the wealthier dc dont make it into a thing will your children feel uncomfortable?

Actually I think it is the opposite case. At my DC fee paying school They have friends who are on full scholarships and from less well off backgrounds. They respect these children far far more than they do for the rich Russian international pupil who when they display or brag about holidays/ apple phones etc are dismissed as dicks.

That is not to say there aren't a minority of pupils on full scholarships that then decide to piss away the opportunity because they have "got in" or want to rebel or are simply disruptive. But these types are also dismissed as did is for wasting a scholarship on someone more deserving.

My older DS went to prep. We do live in a good size house with few luxuries etc. But there would always be someone with flasher car, or living in a mansion. He did learn a lot about porsche, mazaratti. It didn't bother him though. Being a boy they would normally be more interested in some games etc. Then he went off to a super selective grammar and I must say even there, there were few kids who were dropped off everyday in a flashy car. He was not too kin on non uniform days as he found it too onerous to decide in the morning what to wear, but he would like to wear something branded as that was the norm. My DD is moving from a state primary to independent and I had a long conversation about what she can expect, that she will not be able to go to all school trips, and some of the friends will have a mansion. So made her well aware and she seems very much ok with this at the moment. She is academic and is not into fashion, makeup, brands. But who knows in few years time how her taste will change.
I think making them aware what to expect is important. And then only a parent would know how the child is and if he/she will be able to take in such differences.

Secure a place first and then worry about this.

You can always revert back to state school if you think he didn't fit in....

I was a scholarship kid at an extremely expensive school and my children are at state school.

Being the "poor kid" isn't that much of an issue. No shame in having second hand uniform etc. I did find a social gap in what we did outside school at age 16+. However I did end up a bit alienated from the real world. 7 years of being told you are so lucky/privileged and adults wanting to justify the expensive education, and you end up "othering" state school educated peers. Then at 16 or 18 your bubble bursts and you're back in the real world with a bump.

I didn't have an awful time at my posh school and I did get a string of As, but we made a positive choice of state for our DC for more rounding, balance and mental health.

I probably wouldn't position their better off classmates as "lucky", because that casts you as UNLUCKY and creates an undesireable narrative, maybe.

The problem is: what's the alternative? If their classmates aren't better off because they're "lucky", is it because they're "more deserving"? I'd consider that also an undesirable narrative, and probably less true.

@astoundedgoat

We're in this kind of position. Considerably less well off than many, if not all, of DD's classmates and it really isn't a problem. Beneath the surface, LOTS of people are scraping the money together from odds and ends, worrying about it, dreading the invoice, grandparents paying etc. So don't imagine that everybody else is just flinging money around.

We had one conversation with dd, which was literally "Why don't we have alpacas and horses like [insert names of SEVERAL kids in her class!!!]?" so we had a chat about career choices and how different families choose to spend their money, their time and ahem their credit rating.

In terms of holidays, DH and I are from different non-UK countries, so holidays involve going back to our home countries etc. and this is also the case for many classmates, so it's not like everybody is going to the Maldives and we go camping in the local swamp or anything. There's a lot of variety there.

We have a very noticeably smaller house than the alpacas and horses families, but I think we have explained that to our kids well. They were HORRIFIED when I showed them what their friends' parents mortgage repayments probably were!

I think how you talk about money is important. Don't brush off their feelings. I probably wouldn't position their better off classmates as "lucky", because that casts you as UNLUCKY and creates an undesireable narrative, maybe.

I find this a bit strange and not 100% healthy tbh. Why would you put down other parents to your child? Talking about their ahem credit rating to suggest they are l in debt and discussing their hypothetical mortgage payments just makes you look small and a bit bitter. Why choose such a school if you are that unhappy/scathing of the families have more than you? And what message are you sending to your child here? If you are jealous of what others have, put them down behind their backs?

@Ohshitiveturnedintomymother

I read that @astoundedgoat was teaching their children the superficial trappings of wealth are just that, superficial. How many people in large houses and flash cars own them outright?? Sure some do, many don't. It's important to teach children this.

It's also important to teach children financial success doesn't make you a better person or more clever. A tick-tock influencer can earn millions compared to the modest salary of a teacher or academic,

I went to a run down comp and grew up in a very poor council estate, family on benefits, etc- somehow I made it to a prestigious university and middle classed career - I really struggled in my first year of uni, mixing with middle classed kids, I knew no-one even close to the poverty I came from. They will no doubt feel like they dont really belong anywhere, no longer part of the council estate, but not really part of the middle classes. This isn't really a bad thing, I find it much easier than my colleagues talking to people from all walks of life- I can just as easily talk to someone from a council estate who spends all day in a betting shop as I can to an Eton educated, Oxford grad whose family have close links to the Royal family.

It's a lonely life, as I only really have 1 close friend who went through something similar as me ( grew up poor but are now technically middle classed) , I keep a distance from middle classed friends from university and work just as I do from working class friends I grew up with- I don't really belong anywhere, but the alternative is I grew up to be just like my mates at school- working in garages, van driving, unemployed trapped in poverty, or in low paid factory work.

My daughter goes to a selective school in Chelsea. Sixth form so no uniform. Partly her personality- she couldn't care less that she's not going skiiing at half term or the Maldives at Christmas- and partially the other girls at the school which are not cliquey, but she goes in her jeans and hoodies and is fine. She is in awe that some girls walk five minutes to school, more due to comparing her own one hour walk/train commute than the fact their parents own a £5m+ house! She just wished she had that extra hour in bed!
I have only done a couple social things snd to be honest felt more conspicuous because I don't have a partner (widow) and I'm not a size 10! But that's my own hang up. There are enough families that are middling in terms of income that I didn't feel that was a huge issue, and there are income variations at many state schools too, so there's always some families with big house and latest gadgets and others without.
All the girls have to work just as hard as each other to get the grades anyway - that's the leveller.

Gosh, that escalated quickly!

@Ohshitiveturnedintomymother I honestly don't agree with you that it is small and bitter to explain that some people have high salaries and pay hefty mortgages to a teenager who asks why some people have bigger/smaller houses.

Somebody who buys a huge house in an expensive area of the city and drives a brand new luxury car PROBABLY has considerable outgoings every month to make that happen - outgoings that are paid for by working very hard, for very long hours, at a highly paid job. And yes - some of those outgoings may relate to credit - mortgages, car payments, bank loans. Are we not supposed to mention that or teach our children that they exist?

My point is that the well off families are usually not just magically swimming in money, which was daughter's question in the first place.

I don't think it's unhealthy to explain the idea of household debt to a teenager, and how different families choose to divvy up their income, particularly when the teenager literally asks.

I really didn't intend to sound bitchy about it, and I am not unhappy with my lifestyle or snippy about the lovely parents of my daughters' friends.

Thank you for understanding what I was clumsily trying to say, @DaddyPhD

DS1 went to an academic local fee paying school on a scholarship, one of his close friends went to the same school on massively reduced fees because their parent taught there.
DS1 (now well into adulthood) has said that he never really felt the social differences but recognises that being sporty, bright and popular made up for it. His friend on the other hand struggled and feels that it has impacted his mental health even to this day. It’s hard to know whether that is the cause of his mental distress, but that’s what he thinks, so we must take it at face value.