11+ or 13+ for boys

[11or13]

Hi, I’m sure this has been asked before but wanted to ask recent experiences of choosing whether to send boys to senior schools at 11 or 13. Any advice, regrets, things we might not have thought of?

DS is currently Y5 at prep school and we have to decide a) what schools to apply to and b) whether to go at 11 or 13.

He’s academically very capable, CATs around 133, so will likely go to quite a selective school. Our focus is on day schools, probably quite big ones, and we are wondering about advice on going at 11 v 13. Most seem to take around 15% of their total intake at 13.

Some of the benefits of going at 11 we’ve heard include:

• Better socially to settle when everyone starts at 11, also good to get into sports teams etc
• More diverse and engaging curriculum as not restricted by need to study for CE, good for children who enjoy learning
• Better teaching as secondary teachers more equipped to deal with older children than prep
• No need to take another stressful set of exams at 13
• Broader range of facilities, clubs, teams and activities to get involved in before the hard work for GCSEs set in around Y9 (most of the clubs at our prep school aren’t great tbh)
• Avoid the “big fish / small pond” syndrome that sometimes happens at preps when they outgrow the school

Benefits of going at 13:

• Better for late bloomers (DS is not one of these, he’s doing really well now) especially as tend to stay in small groups for longer
• CE a good chance to develop exam skills
• Entrants into day schools at 13 often well academically prepared so go into top sets etc
• Opportunity to be “top of the school” at prep school with responsibilities eg head boy, common room, prefects etc
• Keeps them a little more nurtured for longer
• Easier to get a place as less people applying

We’d welcome any suggestions. Of course we’ve talked to the school but they are very pro boarding and pro Common Entrance, as you’d expect for their business model, so to be honest I find it hard to believe they completely have our interests at heart. They are very anti 11+ and in many cases anti-day schools as a result.

Thanks in advance for any help that people can give!

@11or13 , it would help if you can say where you are based. In SW London there are some preps that are really 13 plus focused as their whole business model is based on it. It's quite hard as a parent to go against their teaching structure. The preps also have links with some of the secondary schools to ensure there will some spaces at 13.
But yes it's easier to get a place at age 11 as there are more spaces and also In SW London Tiffin & the other grammars taking the top ability dc at 11 out of the pool of candidates.

We are SW London. Our school told us it’s easier to get a space at 13 than at 11 as there are less people applying for places at 13. They told us around 5:1 people per place at 11 and 3:1 at 13. Although that could be part of the incentive to keep us there longer!

Also the only grammars are Tiffin and Sutton, I don’t know anyone applying for them but maybe that’s as we are already in independent sector?

We have realised that our school is almost entirely 13+ focused, they really don’t ask very much of the boys at the moment at all but seem to have all the right relationships in place to get the places at 13.

My question really is what best for our child though, I think he’d have a very good shot at getting a good place at 11, so would it be better for us to do that than stay to 13? Interested in experiences people have had at both entries.

It's very difficult but I can say my ds is at Hampton, he went there at 11 because his prep finished at 11. The ds who joined at 13 fitted in straight away and with in 2 weeks you couldn't tell who had joined at what point. The main pointers to the prep school 13 boys were better at Latin and took places in the cricket teams.
In my ds's year at Hampton there are 12 x ds from 1 prep in Richmond that joined at 13.
Tiffin makes a difference at 11 because so many offers Hampton makes are turned down for Tiffin so you get more movement on the waitlist.

@sunshineclouds24 that’s really interesting thank you, how did your DS find the entry there at 11? Did he find it big, or easy to settle?

Presume the odds of entry will be far better at 11 vs 13.

Odds of entry harder at 11 than 13, but that’s not really a huge factor for us. More about doing the right thing

SW London here too. We chose 11 for our son but purely on the basis of distance. The secondary school he has gone to is local and his prep was quite alpha (which he definitely isn’t) so he is thriving away from that environment.
We did have 13+ choices for reeds, St. John’s and St. George’s but purely on the basis that they are further away and will make for a longer day and journey which he would be better equipment for at 13.
For us, as he was going fairly local, there was no reason to stay and at his prep and less than 10% of the year chose to stay until 13 which makes it quite tricky for team sports

Also at 13, yes there are less applicants, but usually less places as well. For instance my sons school takes 65 at 11 but only 10-15 at 13 . So it’s worth asking your favourites schools how many they take in each year group and work out your odds from there

@Scaffoldhell There are fewer applicants PER PLACE at 13 (see above) which makes it easier to get in then not harder.

I know the odds for every school we are considering, and on average they stack up with what our school is saying of 3:1 at 13 and 5:1 at 11 (more at schools like Hampton).

Also, that’s not really a huge consideration for us as we are comfortable that DS will do ok in the exams.

Really interesting though that only 10% of the prep school stayed on - how does the school keep going? I’m expecting around 80% to stay on at ours but you never know. A local move makes good sense, did you stay in the private sector?

@11or13
This is a really interesting post. Would you be able to share the odds at 11 and 13 for some of the SW London schools. I'm particularly interested in Dulwich, Ibstock, Hampton, Reeds, Epsom and St Johns.

Hey, yes we are still in the private sector but we are lucky that his school is close by (and was also our favourite). As it’s local we didn’t see any benefit to staying on at his prep.
His prep school may stop catering for years 7 and 8 depending on how many stay this year and the mall also dropped their year 7 and 8 recently.
One thing I would say, is that I have friends who missed out on Hampton 13 places when they sat for it at 11, but they were then contacted by the school to resit the exams in year 7 and have been offered places now at 13. So if you are thinking of Hampton , this could be a good tactic.

That’s great @Scaffoldhell thank you, interesting to hear so many leaving the prep schools. Do you know why so many go - I guess it gets to the crux of the problem we are considering which is whether it’s better for DS to leave at 11 or stay to 13. As I said, we want to take the entrance aspect out of it as he’s well prepared and Im comfortable we’d get at least a couple of offers at either stage. More about deciding whether 11 or 13 is BETTER for him from a well-being / education / social perspective

@11or13 , I don't think you will find an answer re your dc easily because all the secondary schools are great at settling in dc so if you go at 11 or at 13 you have a good time. The interview process means they all weed out disruptive or arrogant dc from the intake.
Re prep schools, around the Richmond Kingston area it's Tower House/ Kings House and Shrewsbury House that are left with the 13+ route and schools
like Twickenham Prep/ Newland House that will eventually have to give up on 13+ as The Mall as done.
You may do best to talk to current parents at your school who have older dc who have moved on to get a more accurate picture.

We transferred from state primary so didn't have the option of 13+ (I guess we could have done two years in prep, but we never considered that). We found that 11+ worked really well for DS. His school takes roughly even numbers at 11 and 13, and I think he found joining at 11, in a smaller cohort, quite a gentle experience. Not relevant to you, but it also meant there were some others from state primaries joining (there would have been none at 13). DS is quite emotionally young for his age (v academically able, but zero street cred!). I think it was good for him to do the whole 'starting secondary school' thing while all the kids were still pretty young. That meant, by the time the 13+ cohort joined his year (some of whom seemed so much older than him - 13 going on 16!), he was already settled and confident at school. My feeling is that he would have found it harder to hit the ground running at 13. Also, to be honest, he loves the school so much that I'm glad he's having the longest possible time there - the years go by so quickly! Particularly as it's easier to take advantage of the extra curricular activities before he hits the exam years.

But I imagine this is all very dependent on what your child's like, and what your prep school's like.

I would base this on what the majority entering the chosen senior school do, and also factor in the direction of travel in the current Prep.

The general direction of travel for senior schools which aren’t 13+ only boarding, is towards 11+ entry. Senior schools can have more certainty about entrants and also get 2 more years of fees. Day schools and even lots of boarding schools, especially girls’ schools are taking bigger proportions at 11 and reducing or dropping their 13+ entry. There has been a significant shift in the last 5-6 years and this direction of travel is going to continue. This is why so many Preps have dropped their Yr7 and 8 or are in the process of looking to do so in the next couple of years.

Prep school year 7 and 8 is in free fall downwards for most schools. Once numbers get below a certain point, it’s hard for the schools to mainatain an academic staff capable of teaching senior curriculum, field enough teams and make it an attractive proposition for parents. Even though lots of Preps and parents are committed to the idea of being a big fish in a small pond and the benefits of being the top of a Prep school, they just can’t deliver it. When the chosen senior school takes in at both 11 and 13 and especially when a Prep feeds into that senior at both points, those remaining in the Prep, whilst knowing friends who’ve gone off to the Senior, often feel left behind and as if they are treading water and just waiting and being left behind. This is especially the case now so few schools use Common Entrance in a genuinely meaningful entrance based way. Most kids have had their offer if senior school in Yr6 based on either the school’s own exams or ISEB and so the academic push to do well in Yr7 and 8 is lost. It’s a bit like trying to run yr 10 and 11 without GCSEs or knowing your results before you start the course.

With any school you’re interested in, be very specific in your questioning to the Prep and also the your preferred senior school about those remaining at Prep in Yr 7/8 and a numbers taken into the senior at Yr 7 and yr9. If a school take 120 at 11 and then 20 ir less at yr9, those yr9s really will be the minority and will be fitting in with what has already been established. This is more the norm now. The odd school will take a few at 11 and majority later and in this situation, it can work well.

So consider how your DC will feel staying at Prep when X amount head off to the next stage. Absolutely think about what will work for them in Yr 7 and 8 itself (this is where Preps sell the 7-8 experience well) but also what it will be like in Yr9 - either as an established student in the senior already, ir as a new student.

It all depends on the numbers staying on and the proportions taken into the senior at different levels. When digging into this, ask too about plans to adjust these ratios or expected direction of travel with it. In another 2 years, even more might be taken in at 11 and the remaining Yr7 and 8s in Prep schools be even smaller than now. Personally Inwoukdnt consider remaining at any prep that couldn’t fill 2 decent sized classes for yr7 and 8 and field a decent range of at least A and B teams. Senior schools will be bigger, so you really don’t want to be experiencing the phase before in a year group significantly smaller than experienced at yr3-6 I’d think.

If you’re in a Prep which feeds and sends almost everyone to 13+ Boarding it’s a different story, however, there are few schools that do this as their main thing now in reality.

I think the reason lots of parents are now more keen on 11+ is because they worry about ‘missing the boat’ and fewer places being available at 13+.
Lots of schools want 13+ candidates to do a pre-test now in Yr6 anyway, so the advantage of not having to sit exams until yr8, that many felt was good for the more immature boy is now lost anyway. They feel that if they’ve done the exam and got a place, they might as well go. Prepping for the exam leads to people thinking about senior school sooner. The fact they have to choose schools sooner in order to apply and do the exam, also pushes parents who might have ambled along and not wanted to think about it so soon, get focused more quickly and as they focus senior options, their interest and focus on Prep becomes less.

For schools which let kids sit the exam still in Yr8, many parents now feel it’s too late and there isn’t a ‘second date at the cherry’. They might feel there’s no certainty until it’s late in the day…and people don’t like that, especially if lots of places have already been given to 11+ candidates or to 13+ candidates who took a pre-test.

So lots of things are working against 13+ entry, especially in senior schools which are all day-based or have a boarding element but an increasing number of day pupils.

And FWIW, I knew lots of people making these choices about 3 years ago. They made different choices and all if the kids are now at senior school. No-one regrets going the 11+ route, but several who chose 13+ wish they hadn’t. They felt their kids spent the last years in Prep just waiting to move on and catch up with their friends who had left, and that breaking into friendship groups and teams in Yr9, into what was an established cohort was just difficult. Some managed it well, but others felt that even by Yr11 they were the ‘new boy’. A couple of these parents then sent their younger kids at 11 instead of 13 and preferred it. Of course the downside is the fees at senior school are usually more!

Unless your destination school/s require CE year 7 and 8 are less usefully spent at a prep. Increasingly pretests take place early (year6/7) for deferred 13+ places, only some of which are conditional on CE. Ime numbers staying are dwindling and CE becoming less relevant. For Inter school sports , for example, it can be difficult to find prep schools to put up teams against and match levels. Having said that it can be better socially in smaller groups but these tend to stick together if they move on to destination schools together rather than integrate.

Your pros and cons list is excellent OP.

I also think if you have a bright and sociable 13 year old it'll be fine to move at 13+ but most kids worry about the possibility of being able to break into established friendships groups.

Also keeping them at prep keeps them artificially young; in my experience they are nurtured so such a degree that they are quite babyish and immature compared to their compatriots who moved to senior school at 11 and have therefore had two years of a more grown-up approach to education and are therefore ahead of kids coming in at 13+. This can make breaking into established friendships even harder.

Most kids I know who stayed at prep were over-ready to change to senior school by halfway through year seven or beginning of eight. This has led to some behavioural issues in some as they strive to be treated in a less pampered way.

I'm sure others won't agree with me but this has been what I've seen and experienced.

I was absolutely sure mine were staying at prep til 13. I was then advised to avoid CE if at all possible (hardly any kids now actually need it for their next school and I think it will be scrapped within a few years). I was also advised to look at the next school and make the decision based on the majority of their intake...if the majority go at 13+ then do that, but if the majority go in at 11+, choose that.

The other thing your list misses out is that if you move at 11+ then the teachers and students have two and a bit years to get to know each other, and for the staff to know the child's strengths and weaknesses. This is critical for GCSE options which take place Jan/Feb of year 9. If you wait til 13+ then there is only one term to get to know the child in the subject and it's not enough time for many.

I do believe prep schools year seven and eight are becoming quickly outdated and unnecessary for all the above reasons. I certainly don't regret moving both mine at 11+ ...for one of them moving them at 13+ would have been detrimental due to the GCSE options issue. For the other one, he would have been ok staying til 13+ but many of his friends from the prep school suffered from doing so.

@ohtsmeagain @LIZS and @WombatChocolate these are brilliant insights, exactly the insight I was hoping for from people who’ve been through it and you’ve definitely raised a few things we hadn’t thought of at all… eg feeling left behind at prep, depleted A/B teams and the help choosing subjects for GCSE with staff who know you. Really interesting to hear views of other people you know as well, it all makes a lot of sense and certainly points to an 11+ exit in our case (as we aren’t doing boarding). Really appreciate it

Also keeping them “artificially young” - really interesting and I can see how it might make it harder to join friendship groups with people who are a bit more mature and established in senior schools. Again I’d not thought of it but can really see what you mean. I do want to keep DS “young”, but not sure it’s really in his interest that we do?

@ohtsmeagain out of interest, why were you told to avoid CE?

DS1 left his prep at 11+, had a very rocky first 2 terms at his new senior school, and ended up going back to his prep half-way through Year 7. He sat 13+ exams for different schools in Year 8, and had a much smoother transition to his second senior school. Looking back, he says now that he thinks he would have been fine at his first senior school if he’d gone there in Year 9 instead of Year 7, because he would have been more mature. His current school does have its main intake at 11+, but then takes 2 new classes at 13+ so there was a decent cohort of new joiners alongside DS1. He didn’t need to choose GCSE options until quite late in Year 9 so there was plenty of time to experience new subjects and for teachers to get to know him.

Doing 13+ entrance exams in Year 8 did feel a bit precarious – unlike 11+ we didn’t have the “safety net” of staying on at prep if DS1 didn’t get a place. However we did have a much clearer idea of the sort of school that would suit him best, and feel that where he’s ended up is a much better fit than the first senior school he started at in Year 7. He also developed a lot academically in Year 7 and 8, and the school he goes to now is much more academic than the school he moved to at 11+. Socially, the transition in Y9 was fine, though it helped that DS is very outgoing and has a lot of experience meeting and working with new groups of people through his involvement in an extracurricular activity.

We’ve had a very different experience with DS2, who stayed on for Year 7 and 8 at the same prep and sat pre-tests for 13+ entry in Year 6. Receiving offers from pre-tests has meant we’ve had a lot longer to decide which school to accept, but has also meant more guesswork in the decision process - we’re trying to predict which school will suit the person he’ll be in 2 years’ time rather than what would suit him now.

I disagree that time in Y7 and 8 at a prep is not academically useful. Academics at our prep are sufficiently strong that DS1 found he was comfortably ahead in a number of subjects when he joined Y9 at his current senior school.

@11or13

I know what you mean about wanting to keep them young, I really do. And mine haven't suddenly become yobs overnight by moving them at 11! But the gap in between those who've been pampered and pandered to at prep school and those who went to senior at 11 does mean that some children who go in at 13+ struggle to break into the established friendship groups even more when they haven't got a clue what TikTok is or if they still play eg Minecraft when their new classmates are into older games.

I was advised to avoid CE when I read some older posts on mumsnet when I was struggling with this same issue. If I recall correctly, it's a pain in the arse to do CE....they have to revise and sit exams etc when their compatriots at senior schools won't have to have the pressure of CE at that age. Don't be fooled into thinking that only those who've done CE have that essential exam experience....all senior schools have end of year exams every year precisely to prepare students for the fact that GCSE exams will need revising and prepping for.

Also CE is a double edged sword....yes those who've sat it and passed with great marks and often ahead of those other students in year nine when they go to their new senior school. However this isn't necessarily the amazing asset you might think....the new senior school (unless it's a senior school that is academically challenging or one which only accepts at 13+ and requires CE certain marks to enter) will cater for a wider range of abilities than the very top ten per cent of those who've just got As at CE. So the students end of repeating work! Sometimes for much of the whole of year nine. And face disengagement as a result. Our prep banged on about how all their students were a year or two ahead when they went off to local non-academic privates, which was about 80 per cent of them. What they didn't say is that those 80 per cent then had go repeat whole years while the rest of the cohort caught up because moving Children up year groups isn't done anymore and even if the new school has sets (some don't , the fashion is to teach in mixed ability groups) then the top set teacher won't have the inclination to keep giving new students extra work every week for a year. My child has just disengaged with French for this very reason.

Finally at our former prep the former year eight students fed back to me that the teaching of new stuff stops about spring to summer term of year SEVEN. And then it's all exam prep, exam revision for the CE from then on in. Those of them that didn't actually need it found it extremely frustrating, and Boring to have to constantly relearn and revise stuff and do practice papers for lessons for almost a whole year for an exam that only two of their whole cohort actually needed. More and more senior schools, including some very famous and demanding ones are, I found, dropping CE in favour of year six online exams and then an entrance programme of their own.

Hope that helps.

@ohtsmeagain that’s super helpful thank you, and @Methren really interesting to hear the other side of the story too thanks for sharing