Worried ds is going to be kicked out of Y12. If he is, what happens next...?

[newdocket]

DS1 started sixth form in September. He did not work for his GCSEs, but did quite well. Obviously things were difficult for him - as they were for all of them - during the lockdowns, he certainly struggled with online learning. Once school opened again, he got into quite a lot of trouble in year 11 for his consistent lateness, which is not at all excusable given we live five minutes walk from the school, but overall, he seemed happier being at school than he had with the home learning.

Anyway, I had hoped that sixth form would provoke a bit of a change in his behaviour/attitude, that it would be a fresh start. This has not been the case. Within two weeks, I had been contacted by the head of sixth form saying they were worried about his lack of engagement (not handing in homework, consistently being late, sometimes very late, being disrespectful to teachers). I talked to him, explained that I thought the logical conclusion of him carrying on like this would be him being kicked out, he said he would change. He hasn't. He's been late almost every day (despite us getting him up in good time, taking him coffee, cajoling him etc). It's almost as if he is doing it on purpose (I've suggested this to him and he says not, but I think he must be). He has not handed in several homeworks (again, we have asked him about it again and again and he says he has done it).

I don't know what to do. He's nearly 17, it's very difficult to make him do anything. I've tried being very on his case and getting off his case and everything in-between. Does anyone know what can/might happen in this kind of situation (how long will a school put up with someone not turning up on time, for example?). And if the worst happens, is it a case of having to find an alternative, given he has to be in education until he is 18?

Sorry for long post.

DS1 would like to know if he has attention problems - is it my attention or am I just lazy, Mum?

My ds is year 10 but i am very clear. His job os to be a school boy. If he doesn't do that i don't pay pocket money.

I also make hin sit down come up with a plan when its not working.

I have also been very clear once he leaves education i stop bankrolling his life. So he needs to be in a position to support his lifestyle.

My Ds also only lives 10 minutes away from school and started getting lates. We sat down and talked about what time he needs to leave and what time he needs to start getting shoes on.

He is younger and has adhd but the days i have left for work i set Alexa with a timer.

Anselve, that's really interesting, glad to hear your DS is feeling more like his old self again. Can I ask how you made the leap from thinking he was being difficult to understanding that he was anxious?

Would he prefer college? I didnt like 6th form as it felt like you were still at school (which you were) whereas college felt more like the next step and you were more responsible for your own learning. Unless he ultimately wany to go to University then A levels aren't necessary. What does he want to do for a job? Would it be better to find a suitable college course or apprenticeship?

The refusing school was really weird and very unlike him - very laidback, just gets on with things, likes his friends, doesn’t love being at school but never complained about it either. It just seemed weird.

His younger siblings are autistic and it really has given me a crash course in difficult behaviour when the person is actually quite lovely. I never leap to the conclusion that one of my kids is just difficult - there is always something driving it and once you know what it is you can help them solve it.

My son did the same. I somehow managed to drag out the "extra chances" until the end of year 13 but I think it's unusual to be able to do that. He scraped through y13 and instead of uni went into full time employment at the company where he worked part-time. Strangely he is very motivated when it comes to in work training. He's done an apprenticeship, happily takes up extra qualifications that the company offers and at age 20 earns £30k and very happy. He has a proper career path that could lead to six figure sums in future.

In retrospect I should have looked into apprenticeships or had him work a year so he might develop some ideas about what to do. Y12 and y13 was a massive waste of time even though he ended up with level 3 qualifications.

@Anselve that's really interesting - my son really did not do well with lockdown and remote learning "it feels like I'm getting worse!" He did struggle with revision and his exams, but got the grades he needed to go to his insurance, but has been really worried about starting university on the back foot and is very disappointed. I hope he does OK 😕. He is apparently writing lists and spreadsheets to organise himself, but as he admits a lot of it is intentions at the moment...

I am supportive at a distance, and have suggested ADHD questionnaires (he definitely has traits) but I am glad he is living out of the house and not under his duvet on his laptop all day and I'm not feeling like I have to poke him into action every day. I think it might help him being away from the safety net of home (but it is still here, obviously!)

Good luck to both of your sons, @newdocket and Anselve (and mine!)

I know that this (sometimes, often, I am not sure) involves smoking weed, which does worry me.

This could explain his apathy. It annoys me that weed is often seen as pretty harmless but it can absolutely destroy the motivation of an adolescent. www.talktofrank.com/drug/cannabis#the-risks

Can you stop giving him money? If he is choosing not to study he can get a job to pay for the things he wants.

Yes, agree, weed - especially in its current super strong incarnation - is not benign. Once I found out about it I did cut his money because I didn't feel right about him spending it on that.

I think I am going to take him out for a meal and try and have a proper no judgements, get it on the table conversation with him. Funnily enough - or not funnily at all - I've just had an email from the school about his terrible attendance...

Instead of asking him if he done his work, ask detailed questions about what he is learning. Be interested. Ask him to elaborate. Ask him to explain concepts. Ask him questions that make him think.

Also stuck out from your initial post - bit of weed, knows everything, lights up about subject he’s interested in.

I would also say DH probably has ADHD but for him it is on the superpower end. However that’s only as an adult. He did worse than expected at A levels, dropped out of first degree after a year, did another degree halfheartedly. Then travelled, met me and started a degree he really wanted and really flew. I don’t recognise the person my in laws talk about as an older teen.

The thing is if your brain works differently you have to know that so you can work around it and develop coping strategies. As a parent you need to know that they’re not doing it on purpose to annoy you. Otherwise they’re going to end up with low self esteem and no confidence because things that work for most of us don’t work for them

Have a conversation with him: Son, you are about to be expelled from school, what is your plan? Tell him you are unable to continue paying for his phone, weed, etc unless he is in education; he either has to go to college, find an apprenticeship or find a job.

Stop cooking for him, cleaning after him, washing his clothes, making him coffee, he is not a child any longer. He can have house and food until he is 18 but after that not more support unless he wants to study or is working.

You could be describing my son. He was dreadful at 6th form. Luckily (for him) covid hit and it meant he could ride out the rest of that year. He would have been chucked out for sure.
He started 6th form college in September 2020 and its been the making of him. He's like a different person. The range of subjects is much better in college.

Is he smoking cannabis OP? This sounds like a typical cannabis drop out

Sorry to hear of your difficulties, OP. I have a Y13 boy with ADHD and he found the transition to A levels very hard, and lockdown / online learning only made it harder. Y12 was not easy and Y13 isn’t proving that much easier but we are getting there slowly.

Anecdotally, I have heard that DC with ADHD often do find this transition incredibly tough - as one poster on here put it, ‘the wheels come off a bit’. The expectation of more independent and self-directed study, less structure, more self-reliance - the difference between A level and GCSE is huge, it’s a massive step up for all DC and for any with diagnosed or suspected ADHD, it’s unbelievably daunting.

I would not be surprised if your DS’s behaviours are an attempt to mask huge anxiety. Possibly he feels like he’s simply bitten off more than he can chew - especially with essay heavy subjects.

With my DS I have found the best way to try and get him to engage is approaching it very much from the perspective of ‘something needs to change, so what do you need me to do to help you?’ Punishment and threats don’t work. @Anselve makes a very wise point about awareness of brain working differences and self esteem. My DS is acutely aware of his tendency to procrastinate and, even though he knows it’s down to his ADHD, he loathes himself for it. He is so much happier, even at 17, when I take control a bit and help him organise a study plan, for example, because he becomes completely overwhelmed by it all if he tries to do it alone. But with a bit of help with organisation he can actually achieve pretty well. I also find it’s helpful to remind him - regularly - that he is dealing with challenges that many other students do not face and that actually, he should be proud of what he is managing to do. Self esteem is key.

With your DS, the weed will most certainly not be helping but I would still suspect anxiety to be the root of his current behaviours. Definitely try and get him talking, and start thinking about a back up plan - there are other study options if A levels aren’t for him.

The transition from nearly two years of home learning to classrooms and A levels has been difficult for many young people. He could be anxious, bored, out of his depth - he is unlikely to say. If he is asked to leave then you will not find a new programme of study until next Sept. Apprentiships are not easy to find - a good choice but he will need to apply, be interviewed and all that takes effort and time. He will need structure and a job and be prepared for part time or minimum wage as a start. My worry would be the weed which I suspect is the reason for the lateness and lack of engagement. You need a plan for the time when school might tell him to leave otherwise it is going to be difficult to motivate him/get him.out of bed - that would be my main worry.

I read your post OP and immediately wondered if he might have ADHD. I could have written your post last year, we were tearing our hair out with DS. He was diagnosed with ADHD last week. It explains so much and is very easy to miss.

Thank you all for your really helpful and empathetic posts. It's good to know I'm not alone (not that I wish this on anyone, but hopefully YKWIM!). I'm keen to investigate the possibility that he has ADHD. As I said, I have thought this before, and the fact that people have picked up on it without me saying anything could be telling. Can I ask how you go about getting a test (if that's the right word) for ADHD?

What about cannabis OP? Is he smoking at all?

Yes, he is smoking weed. He says it is only occasional and at weekends, I'm not sure what to believe.

@TreeTurningYellow

There is no legal requirement for him to be in education post 16, this is completely different to school.

actually there is. Young people have to be in some form of education till they are 18. This doesn’t have to be A levels or school-it could be a college vocational course or an apprenticeship, but they do have to be in an educational space/programme.

Sounds like me at that age. Massive fail, the whole 6th form. Combo of no work & arrogance, no-one believed I would fail tho.

Many years later, I have an adhd dx...

I'd let him leave or get him assessed. Lots of mgt won't work, as the adhd is too much at that age, linked to hormones. Things have to be an emergency to get done & schoolwork is just mundane. Is he bright? Has he been able to coast until now?

Your idea to take him out to dinner and have a good chat sounds good.

Would he be allowed to remain in school if he just does the subjects he’s interested in? That could help in the meantime? Perhaps he could get a part time job in between school times? (Or it may be too difficult to work round his school ‘shifts’).

Staying at school but immediately improving attendance, an apprenticeship, job, or college are presumably his remaining options.

If you could impress upon him that he will NOT be allowed to be sitting around the house all day playing computer games or chilling with his drop-out hash-smoking mates while his parents are at work, that may sharpen him up. He may think there’s an easy ride awaiting!

I’d be telling him that everyone works or attends school in this house. Nobody stays here as a freeloader. So if you leave school/get kicked out you need to do ‘something’. Not nothing!

If you’re choice is a job you can do all the family’s housework and cooking while you are trying to find one. Being at home is not an easy option. You will have to claim benefits and I will be taking most of them in digs money.

This is adult life. I’d be telling him I’m so proud of him and supportive of whatever his choices are BUT he has to choose either to improve attendance or another option NOW.

@newdocket

Yes, he is smoking weed. He says it is only occasional and at weekends, I'm not sure what to believe.

I think this is the first thing that needs to be tackled - his whole attitude and behaviour for me looks like a cannabis drop out. That doesn't mean he can't have ADHD as well, but with or without ADHD the cannabis is about to cost him his whole life.

Sorry to sound so bleak, but I have seen this happen so many times. My own brother started smoking as a teen, and has never got a single qualification, or held down a job for more than a couple of days, and is now over 60 and dying of COPD. I have seen so many other teens go the same way over my decades as a teacher, some of whom I still see around the town, jobless, sometimes even homeless.

Can you make him see where this is leading? No point in getting angry, just very serious. Can you get the school on board? The school might give him a few more chances if they understand that this looks like an addiction problem. They will know it is unlikely to work, but most teachers will feel its worth doing everything possible before he writes himself off completely, even if it might well end up being wasted effort.

I really hope you manage to help him turn this around. I cant help feeling my brothers parents gave up too quickly, and they might have been able to influence him more if they had tried harder. ( My mum and step dad)

Its very hard, you have my sympathy. Cannabis is evil. Love to you both xx

[quote MrsElijahMikaelson1]@TreeTurningYellow

There is no legal requirement for him to be in education post 16, this is completely different to school.

actually there is. Young people have to be in some form of education till they are 18. This doesn’t have to be A levels or school-it could be a college vocational course or an apprenticeship, but they do have to be in an educational space/programme.[/quote]
@MrsElijahMikaelson1 he no longer has the protection of having to be educated, the law over compulsory schooling finishes in June of them turning 16. You can piss around at school even get expelled but another school place has to be found for that child in some sort of provision.

Once they are past 16 and into sixth form the school/college can very easily remove that child's place if they flout the rules. That is the point I was making. Over the years there has been thread after thread of failing year 12 because of lack of engagement and then being stuck because there is only 3 years of funding available and you have just thrown one of them away. From a college point of view why give a year 12 place to someone who has already had a chance when there are willing students
who have just left year 11?

Plus as pointed out above what exactly do you think these monitoring people can do to a 17 year old who isn't in school or on a vocational course? There must be plenty of them out there, some suffering from mental health issues and some just taking the piss. Who exactly is knocking on doors forcing these unwilling, unco-operative children into work they don't want to do? The parents can't make them so who can?