Toxicity of high-achieving schools

[marytuda]

Just picked this up on social media today. Think it’s pretty relevant to countless mumsnetters desperate to get kids into the ‘right’ schools, terrified of ‘failure’. Confirms all my own instincts . . . Highly competitive secondary schools are actually the last thing your developing teen needs whatever their ability level. They need somewhere friendly to grow and explore in peace at own pace without feeling constantly judged. They are getting plenty of that anyway.

www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-learn/202106/the-toxic-consequences-attending-high-achieving-school?fbclid=IwAR1MfFkIoWP-E722ENwiW58zDVgFYs9iR1XXEwTO6xPWsgJiNfbdb8LBCnc

hoopa of course, but poverty has its own set of barriers and hurdles. It's much easier to do well when you are from a chaotic household if you can throw money around, and your friend from boarding school was able to benefit from that. Imagine having the same chaotic parents, but having to live in a damp, overcrowded home with no internet/devices and not enough adequate food.

@dontstealmymagnolias
It was a few different friends, and no, wealth didn’t help them recover, they had many mental health issues and still do. All the expensive therapy in the world doesn’t make up for a toxic beginning. And I look at some of them in adult life and think how little they have achieved and how hampered they were by the burden of growing up with a legacy of wealth and privilege. I suppose what I am saying is don’t be too quick to think that poverty means a bad start - I know people who were bought up on very little but had far more engaged and involved parents, who have climbed to far greater heights and happiness, than some of the sad souls I met at my top boarding school who seemed to be almost ‘unparented’. Only my observations of course before I get leapt on!

I think there are high achieving schools that seem to manage the pressure and expectations better than others.
My children attend a school that would be described as high achieving and where there are just over 10 applicants per place at 11+ (not technically applicants but people sitting the test).
My older child has a large number of friends at other selective schools as well, in particular one super selective.
Neither of my children have ever felt any pressure from the school or teachers (they would absolutely concur with everything I'm saying here); my oldest child feels some pressure from her own expectations of herself; she also really really wants to do well and not let her teachers down but that's because she thinks they are really good not because she feels pressure from them - I'm struggling to express this well.
When she meets up with friends from the more selective schools she always comes back saying how grateful she is for her school and how dreadful the pressure that is being put on her friends.
My younger child feels some pressure (again internally generated) to "match up" to his sibling but again nothing from the school.
They have both had a genuinely happy experience at school and I feel like the school has managed their expectations really really well.
Having said that, they both have some contemporaries at the school whose parents are very demanding (particularly re CAGs in the last couple of years 🙄) and some where parental pressure has caused issues for their children. Luckily those parents are not the majority at their school but maybe they are at others.
In truth I think my children would have achieved similarly in any school but their experience of school has been phenomenally better in their school than it would have been in our other (less high achieving) options.

To be honest, my son was in a London super-selective and I always told him that as long as he generally keeps up there, he was doing brilliantly. It was fine to be ‘just average’ in a school like that as he would still come out with top grades.

What I would say, is that the quality of the teaching in that school was exceptional. The whole point of a very selective school like this is that you know you have bright, self-motivated kids in the whole who will get all 9s and A*s without too much stress. The school know this and, if anything, I would say the whole ethos was to not load them with unnecessary pressure.

If there wax a ‘toxic atmosphere’ it didn’t come from the teachers or the academic side of things. It’s very easy to assume this when you have no experience of such schools and I can see why people would. But the ‘toxicity’ came from all the issues that are endemic in society for young people today - as reflected in the “everyone’s invited” revelations; or the obvious toxicity of social media etc etc. These issues exist in every school.

My DS is reasonably laid back and was happy to rub along as average. However, I credit his GCSE results to the influence of his friends. DS always perceived his friends to be more able than him and it made him put that bit extra effort into his GCSE revision. I’ll never forget the day when we walked to school to get his results. All the way, I was telling him that GCSE results are just a step to the next phase of study and as long as he got the 7s or whatever it was they needed for A-levels there, it made no difference in the scheme of things. I’ll never forget his face when he opened his envelope and it was 11 grade 9s. He said, “I can’t believe this, I’m the same as all the clever people” (ie his peer group). This really made him believe that hard work can pay off and he’s been very motivated ever since. He still credits this to his friends. Also he knows he’s had a privileged education and says he’s determined to do justice to this.

I don’t know if many pupils in his school who have fallen off the bandwagon because they weren’t coping academically. The school is fantastic for supporting what they see as ‘different learning styles’ such as dyslexia. If they are getting something wrong, they listen and adapt. About 25% there are on bursaries and they are looking to increase this year on year.

I just wanted to give that perspective as an alternative really.

Pilar5 I can relate to this - I was average at school and it was only when I got to university and was top of my course that I realised my school was not 'average'.
I think all children need a peer group of a similar level so whether that be in sport, music or academics. How frustrating would it be to be an olympic gymnast and have to spend your PE lessons doing forward rolls and standing on one leg!? How is this different for academic children?

I taught in a very high achieving state school for 20 years. Left a year ago. It’s one of the top secondaries in the U.K.

I constantly had kids in tears at the pressure, ALL the time. They weren ‘t sleeping, never went out due to homework load. Constant constant pressure to reach impossible targets.

I’m really relieved l got our, it was destroying the mental health of the teens who attended. Just work work work all the time.

Jeez. Very grateful my kids go/went to a good non selective state school. Got good grades (not straight 9s) got decent a levels and went to great uni.

The teachers got a good balance between work and well-being. My kids did outside stuff that they enjoyed.

Surely that isn’t unusual?!

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

I taught in a very high achieving state school for 20 years. Left a year ago. It’s one of the top secondaries in the U.K.

I constantly had kids in tears at the pressure, ALL the time. They weren ‘t sleeping, never went out due to homework load. Constant constant pressure to reach impossible targets.

I’m really relieved l got our, it was destroying the mental health of the teens who attended. Just work work work all the time.

See this is really interesting. And shows how different schools are so different and yet achievements can be similar. This was the experience of dd's friends at another HA school. But my dc (and their school friends) are out all the time with friends, play sports and have a genuinely good balance - yes they revise hard when it counts but have relatively little homework the rest of the time - and yet they also manage to get great results. How do some schools manage to create a lower-stress environment and yet get similar results?

I don’t care how “clever” anyone is (or thinks they are) ... at some point in life you will have to accept that there is always someone “more clever” than you. In fact, not just “someone” - it will be one hell of a lot of people!

In a selective 11 plus school, this realisation just happens in Year 7, I guess. The vast majority take it in their stride. Kids of that age don’t really dwell on these things.

I think, when children thrive in these schools (and most do or they wouldn’t be there in the first place), they learn important lessons in resilience that stand them in good stead for university and beyond. They go out into the world expecting to be challenged and not expecting anyone to pander to them because you are “exceptional” or “the tip student in the year” or whatever. They know what they’re likely to be up against and they’re not phased.

Where I have seen students have quite major “wobbles” have been some of the ones who have entered the sixth form (where a place is even more competitive than at 11 plus) and they have come from schools where they have been perpetually told they are the top student etc. For instance, one girl was in the local papers because she had achieved 8s/9s at GCSE from her state school. I’m not taking anything away from her achievement but after all that, it’s bound to be a massive shock when you arrive in a school to discover you’re not regarded as particularly “special” any more and you’re actually in one of the lower maths sets, despite your grade 9. These are the ones who tend to struggle, to be perfectly honest. I’ve seen this quite a lot. They’ll be fine in the long run, but going from being a big fish in a small pond to a little fish in a big pond happens to us all at some stage. That’s life and you have to build up the resilience to deal with it.

A very competitive school near me has a very high rate of self harming. I am not the least bit surprised. Having said that, parental pressure is a big issue too. A girl in my child's sixth form was kept under virtual house arrest for 2 years under pressure to get good A levels. The poor kid flunked everything. She was a bright girl, but the pressure was so damaging.

Pilar5 we have this very challenge at the moment. DD needs a senior school for year 7 and we can either send her to a high performing international college which is regularly top 15 in the UK for A level results but involves tests every saturday morning. There is a good chance she will be either bottom or one up from bottom sets for maths etc. as the top sets are full of Chinese and SE Asian.
Or an 'ok' school where she will be a leading 'light'.
DD1 is bright and diligent so I think she will be ok at the 'ok' school.
DD2 is very bright but lazy and one of these people who does the absolute minimum and still comes top.. no work ethic whatsoever so quite frustrating. Our concern is if DD2 goes to the OK school they may come away with nothing :-(

Also, I have a niece who has been constantly lauded as “top” in most subjects throughout her time in a fairly standard, very large comprehensive. When you are constantly told you are “top” - it can feel like the only way is down. This can be very damaging. It became a huge (unspoken) burden for her and sadly, she had ended up critically ill with an eating disorder.

I think my own similarly-academic daughter is actually better off being “average” in one of the top girls’ schools in the country. Its less pressure for her, frankly. She is very realistic about it all. If she does particularly well sometimes, well, fantastic. We see that as a bonus. But she doesn’t need to keep that up all the time because her peers or teachers or parents have come to expect it of her. If she wasn’t coping - I’d just take her out anyway.

How clever do people really need to be to be happy in life? My oxbridge mates, if we take that as an example, all lead very normal lives. Not particularly well off or in high powered jobs.

My richest mates, if that’s another criteria are from varied backgrounds. Property development seemed to be the path to riches and a nice life rather, than uni even.

Poor mental health in high achieving schools and universities is presumably the result of the students affected focusing excessively on the results and not actually enjoying the process. Some people actually enjoy the process. Some people are also more prone to feeling judged than others, rather than accepting comment as constructive criticism from which they can progress.

Very interesting points here. I think the issue of comparing yourself with other pupils at a HAS is particularly important.

Comparison with each other is such an important driver and affects people differently. Some people aren’t bothered by what others are doing but many are.
There’s a saying that ‘my house is only small if my neighbour’s is bigger’.

At a non selective school, there are some children who are brainy, some sporty, some musical, some rich, some good-looking. Some of the top London selective schools will have a high proportion of students with all these qualities and it takes a resilient and mature child to accept this is not a normal representation of real life. Whilst obviously many thrive, I have seen a fair few who haven’t and who’ve grown up constantly thinking they are need to compete - they need the best house, job, husband, highest achieving kids etc. Obviously these types of people are found in all walks of life but if you think your child has these sorts of perfectionist tendencies you might be best off avoiding high achieving schools. But sadly many parents I’ve met actively encourage their child to be super competitive (one I know was outraged when her child joined a HAS that she wasn’t immediately on the A team for her preferred sport and booked private tuition in the sport to get her up to speed. Never mind that said child was already an incredibly high achiever academically - that wasn’t enough.)

And as for needing to realise that people out there will always be better than you academically and best to find that out earlier rather than later, I’m not sure I agree that the best time for that is during those formative and already quite difficult early teenage years. Obviously some children cope with it and thrive but definitely not all.

@IrishGirl2020
Great post.
I tell my DC the expression 'the grass is greener where you water it'. Put time and energy in to your own life and achievements and don't be tempted to look over the fence at anyone else's grass, for comparison is always the thief of joy!

This is an interesting discussion. I certainly experienced a lot of stress which I don’t think was easily visible to anyone else. I got straight As and went to Oxbridge but it hasn’t helped me with a career as I didn’t know where to head once all the exams and pressure finished .
It’s a helpful reminder actually what it might feel for our DC as they head towards exam pressure and i was actually forgetting as so much time has passed , how much more important wellbeing and a healthy life balance is than grades. I did deliberately choose a school for DD that had no evidence of the pressure or anorexia mine was rife with, but need to be careful DS is ok too and glad read this