Toxicity of high-achieving schools

[marytuda]

Just picked this up on social media today. Think it’s pretty relevant to countless mumsnetters desperate to get kids into the ‘right’ schools, terrified of ‘failure’. Confirms all my own instincts . . . Highly competitive secondary schools are actually the last thing your developing teen needs whatever their ability level. They need somewhere friendly to grow and explore in peace at own pace without feeling constantly judged. They are getting plenty of that anyway.

www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-learn/202106/the-toxic-consequences-attending-high-achieving-school?fbclid=IwAR1MfFkIoWP-E722ENwiW58zDVgFYs9iR1XXEwTO6xPWsgJiNfbdb8LBCnc

Ok but you say how private educated students consider themselves some super elite who expect to dominate top universities with their snooty ways and superiority but then shock horror! Once at university they find they’re outstripped in every way by the state educated students.
These are not only generalisations and stereotypes but also this has been done to death on mn over the years.
Can’t you come up with something a bit more original?

OP, In my experience, it’s the 11 plus to get into the schools that’s can be the insane pressure. Schools around here can have ten to 15 applicants for every place, so they’re all sitting at least 5 schools to mitigate the odds. This is a ridiculous malarkey and can bring out the worst in parents. But once they’re in the schools - it’s genuinely not pushy at all. One of the schools mine went to stopped giving grades or marks on the reports because they realised students only looked at the marks - glossing over the feedback from teachers. They wanted it the other way round. I think if you went in many of “these schools” you’d be very surprised. Also around 25% are on bursaries in this school. It’s not the only one. I can only think of two children who had mental health problems and had to leave, sadly. It wasn’t because of the work pressure. They had stuff going on at home. There are a couple of hyper competitive kids, but everyone knows who they are and let’s them get on with it. They know that as long as they’re pretty average, they can come out with all 8/9s so what’s the point of going OTT? My younger one is in a school that you would think is high-pressure and they’re all just chilled, to be perfectly honest. They can easily keep up - otherwise they wouldn’t be there in the first place. To them it’s just a normal school with people of similar to ability them - what else do they know? If you do particularly well in something - fantastic! If you’re in the bottom set for maths or whatever - don’t worry, you’ll still get an 8 or 9. None if them are remotely super-stressed as far as I can see.

@mangomania just curious, which independent schools are receiving 10-15 applications per spot? I heard SPGS was no more than 600 applicants for 100 spots. >10:1 seems extraordinarily high. Just curious. Thanks.

@pkim123 I suspect it’s grammars like Tiffin that have those ratios. The queues are certainly huge for the stage 1 exam! This year, they’re doing the exams over two days (rather than one day with two sittings) so I suspect the numbers are even higher.

My friend started self harming when her child was going through the 11plus. He got the top school he wanted but I fear it is going to be too much for him. I wish we had a different system in this country.

[quote HighRopes]@pkim123 I suspect it’s grammars like Tiffin that have those ratios. The queues are certainly huge for the stage 1 exam! This year, they’re doing the exams over two days (rather than one day with two sittings) so I suspect the numbers are even higher.[/quote]
@HighRopes you are probably correct. It must be the top grammars, not independent. Also, I know so many people that have ZERO interest in top grammars that use the early test date as a "prep" for other independent schools that they are interested in. Happens constantly. So many gearing up for 3rd September I'm hearing. I know of one with genuine interest, the rest all just going as a trial run.

pkim123 - Latymer Upper in Hammersmith has over 1,400 application for around 140 places going into Year 7. It’s very popular as co-ed and there’s not many options for boys at 11 plus in that area.

My sister and I both went to a 'High Achieving School'. I would say I am more driven than she is .. however she is quite anxious about everything in life in general and I am more relaxed though more driven..
What about the toxicity of low achieving schools? How does poverty effect people's mental health..
This post seems to be a wealth of stereotyping..

Good heavens Andante I didn’t know I was required to demonstrate originality at all times! It’s quite flattering actually to have been encumbered with such responsibility 😉
I haven’t been on this forum for a while but fwiw it seems even more, erm, HAS-parent dominated than it used to be, judging by defensiveness of reactions, and above all the extent a couple seem intent on questioning my motives, probing my background (why?) - for sharing an article FFS!
It is an interesting article for all that. . Seems authoritatively sourced. Though of course US based.
I warmed to it I suppose because it reassured me I had not irrevocably damaged my child’s prospects by declining to prep him through the 11 plus etc and settling instead for a regular decent comp. . . Something it was impossible not to obsess over during those mad secondary-transfer months; and of course, the underlying ‘what-if’ guilt-susceptibility never quite goes away does it . . And not just about education.

I've always thought the next tier down from the top even for a very bright child is a better choice. The pace and pressure is relentless at the top and there's no room to falter. You need solid pastoral care and great teaching without behaviour problems. It's not rocket science. The preoccupation with secondary schools is uniquely British. In most of the world where you go to secondary isn't ever a topic of conversation.

“ it reassured me I had not irrevocably damaged my child’s prospects by declining to prep him through the 11 plus etc and settling instead for a regular decent comp. . “

Well, this is it. People will believe whatever they want to believe or whatever makes them feel better

The fact is, any type of school can be a nightmare, regardless of the pace. As long as they have good friends they’ll be happy anywhere. That’s what I’ve found anyway. Teachers are teachers. All schools have great teachers and those who are not sure great. Kids just take the curriculum as it comes.

@marytuda
Sounds like you are a fab mum who has really thought long and hard about your DC's life from a mental health angle rather than a 'results is everything' angle, and you were wise not to succumb to the 11 plus craziness just for the sake of it and I suspect your child is going to turn out a very well rounded, happy, healthy adult. What more could anyone want!

ps @marytuda, I am afraid that particular poster has some form in this kind of debate. Don't bite.

This article mirrors my own experience exactly. Thanks OP, very eye opening to see the concrete research.

Haha SeasonFinale. Seconded.

Incredibly patronising as well as toxic, the unimaginative stereotyping.

Schools do not all have great/ rubbish teachers in the same proportion though. There are some schools where a decent HT will be quick to act on underperformance, others where the chances of appointing a replacement are next to zero, and do the rubbish teacher stays, doing disservice to his or her pupils.

@OneSwallowSummer

I've always thought the next tier down from the top even for a very bright child is a better choice. The pace and pressure is relentless at the top and there's no room to falter. You need solid pastoral care and great teaching without behaviour problems. It's not rocket science. The preoccupation with secondary schools is uniquely British. In most of the world where you go to secondary isn't ever a topic of conversation.

I’m not sure which countries you are thinking about but where I’m coming from, people very much worry about which secondary schools children are going to. And they go to great length to be sure their dcs go to the ‘right’ school, just like in the U.K.

The reason is simple. Not all schools are actually equal.

As @OneSwallowSummer said
You need solid pastoral care and great teaching without behaviour problems.
The problem is, a school like that isn’t always easy to find…. At least, it’s not where I live.

@IsItWorthTheHassle
Completely agree with that fact that is hard to find. Here in the UK sadly there are pastoral issues in ALL sectors of schools as the awful testimonies on Everyone's Invited showed recently. It is a tough time to be a teenager whatever kind of school you go to. There are behaviour problems in comps, grammars and private schools. There are mental health issues in comps, grammars and private schools. Picking a particular school does not mean that a child won't come in to difficulties - all you can do is arm them with a good foundation, encourage them to talk to you, and show them how to reach out for help at school with trusted staff. I've seen great examples of schools with good pastoral care in all the different sectors, and truly awful examples in all sectors too.

Reading with intrigue

I don't think the schooling system is right, it is ridden with inequality and the particular school or university matters.

I am however really proud that my boy chose to learn during lockdown and was self-motivated, it was a lovely thing to watch unfold. I was very worried about stress, but I just tried not to make it a high stakes event.

But what really made him motivated was going to the state primary school that struggled with everything, class trips would be cancelled because of poor behaviour, parents having swearing matches, or turning up at school gates intoxicated. Gang culture creeping in.
Lock-down provision was next to nothing until the second lockdown.Some children are let down by parents, teachers and their community.

When my son went to a grammar school and saw the facilities he was so happy and these would probably be nothing compared to many private schools.

What really annoys me is how hidden those opportunities are.
Private schools have charitable status they should do more to educate people from challenging backgrounds.
Why don't pupil premium pupils taking up the full allocation of grammar places?

The tutoring industry is endemic and often preys on poorer parents without any real hope of success.

Anyway all I suppose I am saying is there is stress everywhere, there is a lot of stress associated with working long hours in a low paid job and not having much agency over your life and having limited choices.

@SeasonFinale

Glad to see there apparently is no toxicity in stereotyping

OMG- that post was awful!

Sorry what I am saying is that private schools should do more to maintain their status. It is not enough to just cherry pick the poor brilliant student who is uber talented and would have probably done well at any school, and then say how inclusive you are?

Also I fully see how the system can be broken, I totally get how some of the most brilliant teachers at my son's primary had to spend their time with the kids that needed that time more than others. There is only so far they could stretch.

The inequality though .. it really does take your breath away.

@MrPickles73

My sister and I both went to a 'High Achieving School'. I would say I am more driven than she is .. however she is quite anxious about everything in life in general and I am more relaxed though more driven.. What about the toxicity of low achieving schools? How does poverty effect people's mental health.. This post seems to be a wealth of stereotyping..

@MrPickles73 hard to disagree with you. IMO, as soon as you put together a group of individuals that are very highly capable...children, adults, students, athletes, executives, etc., it very often leads to a competitive anxious environment to be #1. Maybe for a younger person, they can sometimes be better served by being surrounded by lesser academically able students. Maybe until a person is mature you should not subject them to being around other highly capable people. For example, if a child is truly exceptional at sport or music, is it a mistake to place them in an environment of the best sports kids or musicians? Perhaps they should not seek out the most successful coaches or music instructors? The answer could be "yes". That said it is very difficult as humans to not want to surround ourselves with the best if that's the level we're performing at.

It's swings and roundabouts - whilst in a HAS there may be additional pressures, in a sink academy in a deprived area there will be a higher level of socio economic disadvantage - both of which impact on MH. I attended both, and I'd much rather my dc went to the HAS.

@dontstealmymagnolias
There can be issues also with socio economic advantage!! I went to a range of schools but the one where I had friends who struggled the most with their family life was at my very top boarding school. This is anecdotal and therefore please don't accuse me of stereotyping - this was based on what I saw some of my friends go through in their family life.
A completely absent father, father on third marriage with multiple half siblings (one of my friends was an aunt age 8) alcoholic parents drunk from lunchtime. each day, drug taking parents (albeit the 'better' quality of drugs, but still, it wrecked their lives) drunkorexic mum who never sat down to eat with the family and took tablets to make her poo and was bulimic, a dad having multiple affairs at work, the pressure of having a very, very famous parent and feeling you weren't going to live up to them, a parent forgetting to pick you up on the right day for exeat, a father blaming a daughter's anorexia on attention seeking, a father who threw the mum around the room when he was drunk.
Children can struggle with life and mental health whatever school they are in - families are difficult and complicated, socio economic advantage does not eradicate that. It isn't just sink schools that have children in families with multiple issues, its just wealth and good clothes can hide many, many insidious living situations.