Considering move from state to private - what to ask?

[itsjustlowhangingfruit]

DD is 13 and not happy at her state school. We are considering a move to private. we have an initial zoom call with the principal and head of year, and then a visit the next day to the school with DD.

What should we be aware of? What should we be asking? What should we be looking for? Any ideas and tips appreciated!

DH and I went to state school so no real experience of private. DH thinks we will not be eligible for a bursary as our combined income is between £65-70,000 (one of the other schools we looked at said those with that income wouldn't get bursaries).

My DPs have offered to help with the costs but its still a lot. We would find a way to pay it regardless if it means DD was happy.

DD is a smart girl, getting at least 80% in all her school tests, but she's not skilled in a particular subject. She used to be in her school's brass band but got bored of it. She's not sporty or outdoorsy either. She does like Art best but I wouldn't say gifted.

The private school we are looking at talks a lot on its website about music, drama, sports and DD doesn't really like any of these things so I'm not sure if the school would be looking for that kind of talent from her or if they'd be happy to take her anyway, especially as her grades and behaviour are all good.

Anyway, any advice welcomed.

We have a visit planned yes although its at 4pm and I had hoped for her to see other pupils to get more of an idea of what they could be like.

She's unsure as to whether she will fit in and keeps saying she doesn't want to go to a 'posh' school although she does want to change schools. Other state schools we have looked at either have equally bad stories from parents we know, or have no spaces (bar one - we are waiting to hear about a visit to that one too).

So either private or this one state school that has spaces (its further away though).

You can always go and hang around the gate another day to see what they look like. Although, in uniform, they’ll just look fine won’t they?

DD is moaning about having to wear a kilt and tights (she hates tights) so that's kind of put her off before we've even done the visit. She also has colours in her hair and doesn't think she'd be allowed to keep this (I never wanted her to get it done anyway but she begged and begged).

It sounds like she will do fine there. For us (outer London, loads of good private schools and the schools choose you not vice versa) it was all about which ones could they pass the entrance test into (more people rejected than accepted) and where do people go when they lave - "destinations of leavers" - ask to see a list of universities and subjects of last year's leavers or the year before. if it is to very poor universities or not university at all may be consider if this is a good school.

You might well get a bursary but you can apply once she has a place if there is no entrance test I suppose. Certainly worth asking if they have a leaflet about bursaries.

It does not matter if they like lots of hobbies or not. My 5 private schools children have all varied. One son did so little at school his teacher said (before covid) he might as well have done it by correspondence course. Some people are just not joiners (but he is good at passing exams and I am sure helped the school's results.

Poor OP! Between your reluctant DD and your adamant husband - how do you ever get anything done?

Bursaries are means tested. So one family on £70k might get an award while another is refused. It depends partly on your exact financial circumstances, and partly on just how much they want a child to join who otherwise would not be able to at all.

One thing - part of the entry process is likely to be an interview. So far you haven't indicated any subject your DD is wildly enthusiastic about ... She will probably need to be able to speak with interest about books she's reading and activities she enjoys - whatever they are. And show some openness to new experiences! (It does sound as if her school experience at the moment isn't bringing out the best in her.)

You do not necessarily need to be able to talk about books (can be helpful to have a few up your sleeve just in case!) but you do need to talk enthusiastically about learning, what subjects you enjoy, why and what about the new school makes you want to go there.

I am going to be blunt: your DD is moaning a lot. She is going to struggle to conform. Now she does not like the uniform. You will have continual problems - she does not like anything. You have not said a single good thing she can talk about. It’s all negative. I know you will think this harsh, but she’s not cut out for this school, is she? She will get there and it will all go wrong- again. No, they wont like dyed hair at her age. They will not let one girl in with hair like this whilst saying no to everyone else. You will have a major uphill struggle to keep her at this school so why bother?

I wonder if the OP's daughter's negativity comes from a place of frustration? Since the OP says Her current school is one of the lowest performing in the country. If there's an entrenched lack of ambition there, along with some learned resentment towards anyone seen as 'posh' - it may currently be difficult for her to step outside the general mindset. (I'm only speculating OP!)

Are you able to take her to any art galleries? Or concerts? (Don't know which is your nearest city. Edinburgh and Glasgow are obvs replete with galleries. And I'm aware Aberdeen University, for instance, is very involved with music.)

I'm puzzled as to why you didn't think the school would want to assess her themselves before offering a place. It's not a state school, so they're not obliged to take any particular child - they choose according to which children they think will thrive in that particular environment, under their particular ethos, and, they hope, bring credit to the school academically or through some other activity. Assessment might be relatively more cursory because of current restrictions and difficulties - but every paying parent wants some assurance that the school will only be accepting children who will enhance their own child's progress. That's why there are entrance exams and interviews.

I'm not saying any of this to put you off! But you may need to cajole your DD into a more positive and proactive mindset to smooth the way forward.

You are right about entrenched views. My DN transferred for 6th form to a better comprehensive. Her comp didn’t have a 6th form. She decided everyone was too posh and wouldn’t make friends. Just went to lessons. It’s a poor way to approach other people. I would always say give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Try and see the best in others. Try and get on with people. It bemused me how every child was not suitable at a comp and they were deemed too posh! Life is hard if you don’t try.

I have a friend who is a teacher and used to work at state and indie school. Her view is quite unique to me- she said Indie schools operate more like business with a clear awareness of who is the client/customer. And this customer happiness first rule basically dictates and distorts a lot of activities to drift away education from its essence. She quite doubts whether the teaching and learning at indies has any higher level of quality buts admits that students in independent school have more share of attention, encouragement and supports, and hence happier than those in state school.

Just to quote this for your reference.

My view in this is a bit different- at least nobody can deny that independent school has a better environment including a better group of peers I assumed, which may shape the DC for personality, responsibility, self-discipline and vision, then the teaching and learning become the second important- if to consider that DC's cohort has adapted to learn everywhere.

Not suggesting any good or bad, I am just pouring the above out.

Plenty of independent schools have great added value. Pupils value smaller classes. A bit more attention. Teaching can certainly be variable. However they do protect their usp. Pupils tend to fit into the ethos set by the school. It’s also what most parents, the customers, want so it’s a mutually supportive environment. They are charities and businesses as well as educators. I rather suspect the teaching at Eton is better than at an average comp in a deprived area though!

@Mumalsoasfriend Interested what you mean by "a better group of peers" at the private school? There are teenagers who push boundaries and/or engage in very challenging behaviour at private and state schools. I'm in SW London and there are sadly plenty of private school children (y9) as well as state school getting into trouble doing drugs and drinking. But obviously the private schools can more easily get rid of them. Up to you if you think that is a good thing. I have always thought it is worth remembering that any one of our children could struggle at any point and I looked for a school which suggested it would try to help the student rather than simply get rid of the "problem".

[quote Nowfeeltheneedtopost]@Mumalsoasfriend Interested what you mean by "a better group of peers" at the private school? There are teenagers who push boundaries and/or engage in very challenging behaviour at private and state schools. I'm in SW London and there are sadly plenty of private school children (y9) as well as state school getting into trouble doing drugs and drinking. But obviously the private schools can more easily get rid of them. Up to you if you think that is a good thing. I have always thought it is worth remembering that any one of our children could struggle at any point and I looked for a school which suggested it would try to help the student rather than simply get rid of the "problem".[/quote]
Thanks for this note @Nowfeeltheneedtopost. As you have been aware, these problems may exist EVERYWHERE but the independent schools may opt to get rid of the troublesome students. Sadly it is not helpful for society, I agree. The real solution may lie above any authority's power, not just the school's problem. It's too far from the reign of a family as well as the remedy of a child's social circle. Keeping a good wish, but acting realistically, that's why a lot of parents opted for choosing a tidy-up small environment for their DCs. You may think it a bit of selfishness. But are they wrong? As parents, if I know there is a problematic student in DC's school, am I really sure it would be worthy to stay in a school where my child reach out their help hands to peers when they're innocent than in a place where authority uses the power to expel the people with problem?

What is a tidy up small environment?

All policies on behaviour should be on school web sites.

The school has places. It will be different from those schools with 5 or 10 applicants per place so I don't think it will really matter what is said in the interview. They will just be checking she is not going to be able to sit still in class and get on with work.

As for some state and private schools removing children from a class room because their behaviour of that one destroys all learning for the other 24 - well done to those schools. They pursue the greater good.

@Xenia
The dd doesn’t want to wear a kilt or tights. This is the uniform. She has colours in her hair. The school might not feel this meets their criteria. However it will be money that drives the decision if it’s not full!

So we had the private school visit today and DH and I absolutely loved it. We were really impressed with the building, the curriculum, the teachers. They were nice normal people and showed a real interest in our daughter, her interests and how she would be supported to settle in. We were also impressed with their outcomes and how they prepare the students for moving on after the school.

I could see from DDs reactions that it was better than she was expecting however she's still verbally expressing reluctance and saying she wants to go to the state school we were also considering, however, it doesn't look like we will get a visit there before August and a place there hasn't been definitely confirmed.

DD says she's worried that in a school with smaller class sizes, the teachers will 'pick on her more'. I asked what she meant and she felt the teachers would be more compelled to call her to answer questions etc. DD claims not to like attention but I think she's anticipating something that won't happen. If she does get more 1:1 attention then that imo would be a good thing as she's just not getting the learning she deserves in her current school with all the disruptive pupils.

So we know what we want, DD wants something different, but I think a lot of it is nerves. I don't want to be the parent who forces her but we both honestly believe, as parents, its the best option for her.

How do we bring her round to seeing that herself?

@itsjustlowhangingfruit

So we had the private school visit today and DH and I absolutely loved it. We were really impressed with the building, the curriculum, the teachers. They were nice normal people and showed a real interest in our daughter, her interests and how she would be supported to settle in. We were also impressed with their outcomes and how they prepare the students for moving on after the school.

I could see from DDs reactions that it was better than she was expecting however she's still verbally expressing reluctance and saying she wants to go to the state school we were also considering, however, it doesn't look like we will get a visit there before August and a place there hasn't been definitely confirmed.

DD says she's worried that in a school with smaller class sizes, the teachers will 'pick on her more'. I asked what she meant and she felt the teachers would be more compelled to call her to answer questions etc. DD claims not to like attention but I think she's anticipating something that won't happen. If she does get more 1:1 attention then that imo would be a good thing as she's just not getting the learning she deserves in her current school with all the disruptive pupils.

So we know what we want, DD wants something different, but I think a lot of it is nerves. I don't want to be the parent who forces her but we both honestly believe, as parents, its the best option for her.

How do we bring her round to seeing that herself?

That sounds really positive. Your DD is understandably nervous. She doesn't know what she doesn't know, it's always hard trying something new. Can you tell her that if she hates it after trying it, she can go to the other school but needs to do two terms? That way if she hates it you can give notice by the the of the first term? The likelihood is that the issues she is worried about will become insignificant when she realises how much easier it is to study there.

It sounds (forgive me!) as if there's a real culture of resentment against learning at her current school. Such a shame to hear that she perceives normal pupil teacher interaction as being 'picked on'. That's not good - at 13. Has she really not begun to understand the necessity of challenge as a way of moving forward? Are all her teachers so hopelessly uninspiring?

How does she spend her time out of school?

With her friends who I don't think are great friends and we've been trying to encourage her to see them less (without being lonely).

Her friends are not a good influence - she confessed one made her drink alcohol, some are self harmers, others are constantly changing their names (non binary, or so they say, I think for some of them at least its seen as a 'cool' thing rather than genuine),

She herself admits her friends upset her or "stress her out" so we are trying to distance her.

When not with her friends, she doesn't really do anything club wise. She watches films (avengers at the moment), plays minecraft, draws, listens to music.

So is she challenging herself (apart from Minecraft) and developing new skills? I asked earlier if you were able to take her to art galleries, etc. If she's interested in Art, how much is she pushing herself to learn and improve?

Look - if this potential new school is anything like independent schools in England (and I see no reason why it wouldn't be) the ethos will be one of 'work hard, play hard'. The more successful children will be busy - constantly trying to win; whether that's on the sports field or in the orchestra or in a maths competition. They'll be talking about their efforts and achievements all the time. Your daughter might find things (friends, popularity, her share of praise) tough, unless she develops an attitude of striving to succeed, in and out of lessons.

At 13 she has plenty of time to adjust. I went to a rough comp until GCSEs and then to a grammar school for sixth form. It was really strange to experience the totally different attitude to learning and achievement but definitely not too late.

We did get her an English tutor during Lockdown. She's been in the music band out of school (but has lost interest in that). She was involved in lots of clubs at primary school but there isn't really anything like that on offer at her secondary nor by the local council. Its all rather shit really.
She did show an interest in the entrepreneurship activities at the private school (she was in the enterprise club at primary)

We moved one of ours for similar reasons but always had it at the back of mind as an option for year 7 anyway though, she loves it, made new friends, kept old friends, does clubs mainly sports (no extra costs but way better provision than state) the facilities are amazing for art and sciences and drama, she is allowed to be herself, it’s not posh at private school, that stereotype is irritating and narrow minded, the children at my dd’s
School are encouraged to be themselves, high expectations are made and it is part of the ethos of the place that nothing can hold you back, it’s ok to be clever, arty sporty or any combination of the above etc etc, pastoral care is very very good, for what it’s worth my dd was highly achieving where she was in state but now she is really flying and she also disliked the behavioural distractions and the practice of helping others with their work once she was done, why should she do this when really she should have been given more challenging work, now she can be stretched to meet her full potential in smaller classes with zero behaviour issues…view the place with an open mind and see if your dd likes the feel of the place and the facilities available, the smaller classes are well worth the cost for us and it’s a far nicer journey albeit to the same grades as top set state for many but i think as much enjoyment should be had about the journey not just the destination, if your dd is not having a good journey and you can afford it then move her

there isn't really anything like that on offer at her secondary nor by the local council.

You know, if she does go to the new school, I bet you'll find there are lots of activities happening within say a 40 or 50 mile radius that you just weren't aware of. Some, involving horses and boats, will be £££, but others - like perhaps regular weekend workshops at the nearest city's gallery, theatre, or museum, will be closer to free. (Obviously covid has made things difficult lately.)

Do you have friends involved professionally in things she's interested in? And does she have any inkling of what she might like to do / study in the future? What I'm saying is you can't leave things until she joins the school. She'll need noteworthy experiences in her pocket to talk about once she gets there - otherwise she might experience every conversation with her new peers as them 'showing off'.

ExpulsoCorona is right that she has plenty of time to adjust, but there's plenty you can be doing from now to make the transition easier for her.