Secondary decision: conversation re private vs state?

[Poodlesarecool]

Hi,

I’m after some views please! I am mum to 2 boys, both at state primary, both doing well (one being top of class).

I have a decision to make about secondary school. I should say here my hubs and I are both state educated through and through. Both successful, he more than me. We live very comfortably and are very aware of this privilege.

I had always intended to send the boys to good state secondary nearby but I had a telephone chat with an extremely close friend yesterday which has totally shaken me. I have always felt school choices are incredibly personal and there should be no judgment.

So friend basically made uninvited commentary that we should sell our house and downsize to fund the kids through private school. She said that if the children go to state school they’ll be mixing with a “working class demographic” compared to more “elite” demographic at private school (for the record I’m not far off what she’d consider to be a working class background so that stung somewhat. Struck me as very entitled, privileged and divisive). She said that speech and manners, confidence and opportunities are greater at private school. She has friends in Cheshire with a large house and can’t understand why they send their kids to state school, she thinks they should sell their house and downsize and their priorities are wrong. The implication being that our priorities are wrong too.

I was very stung and upset - I felt judged like I was being told I don’t prioritise my children. We had always thought we’d send them to very good state secondary and sort private tutors and supplement their education where needed, and ensure they enjoy a wide range of activities outside of school. This conversation has really shaken me.

Will we really be doing our children a disservice by not sending to private? I do accept the opportunities and environment will be better, but overall academic achievement and lifetime prospects will I be damaging my children’s future?! This is how this conversation left me feeling.

It’s sad too - what’s been said can’t be unsaid. I don’t think she realises the damage she has caused to our friendship.

Just interested to hear if I’m missing something here. Thanks all x

With friends like that, who needs enemies.. I would reconsider the friendship tbh

Ignore her- she sounds like a loon (and an insufferable snobbish one at that..). My top tip would avoid any school her kids go to!
Having said that my DCs do go to independent secondary schools and we do get snide comments from family members about that- works both ways!

What a load of nonsense she's speaking!
For the record, both my children went through state primary, and DD did year 7 in our local comp; both are now in private schools.
We are very definitely not well-off, well-connnected, or any of the supposed attributes she imagines private school parents have. There are many, many other parents like us at the school, so there's a good chance her children and you're would be mixing with children like my terribly uncouth oiks
Likewise, in our local comp, there are plenty of very well-off, successful parents.

Money doesn't mean manners, social graces or connections, neccesarily, and a good school is a good school , regardless of being state or private.

Ha I wouldn’t be reevaluating my thoughts on schools, but would most certainly be reevaluating my friendship.

For what it’s worth, my dc were both state primary educated and have gone (or are going) to private senior. But that’s purely because we feel the schools in question are the best options for our children. I would never think for a moment that state secondary can’t be a brilliant choice, and give a brilliant education.

Realistically, you must know she is talking out of her arse! Ignore her, and be proud of your choices for your children.

I don't mean to be rude but do you really need to ask? If an 'extremely close friend' said something so dumb to me, I'd be telling them to button it and demoting them to ex-extremely close friend!
There are many reasons why people choose private over state and state over private and most, on both sides, are completely valid. Going private to avoid 'working class' kids is just as stupid as going state to avoid 'elite' kids.

Thank you all, you’ve just endorsed my thinking on this. And @Legoninjago1, thank you and no not rude. I was trying to clarify my thoughts on this. This was a good long term close friend and I genuinely feel a bit shell shocked that someone I held in high esteem could have such ridiculous, and very upsetting views. What’s been said can’t be unsaid. It’s reassuring to get this feedback with others’ views

We have a DD and looked at several private schools in our area. We eventually settled for a local state school. That has turned out very well for DD. Rejecting the private schools was the right decision.

Our reasons were as follows:

1. Terrible value for money. Private schools today are a scam and just take advantage of people. At one school we applied for fees were something like £25,000 a year JUST FOR DAY TUITION. For that amount of money I want full boarding with single rooms, en-suit bathrooms and all the other luxury facilities. Instead, these schools are just using the money on excess staffing with two-thirds of the teachers sitting on their bottoms doing nothing all day or they are just lining their pockets.

2. Most private schools are not good with kids who are having problems. Our DD has aspergers and dyslexia and so it was an obvious case in our regard. But even normal kids may develop problems later in their teenage years even if they were okay at age 10-11. I was once told of a case where a boy was asked to leave a school after he had been there for five years basically because he wasn't going to "make the grade". Five years of fees had been wasted. They may talk about having good pastoral care, but believe me, it's ALL FOR SHOW. There schools do not care about your child, only their league table performance.

Sorry for the rant, but we don't like it when people are exploited.

Oh my! Just find it a little surprising if I’m honest that this person is actually a very good friend and hasn’t previously come out with equally atrocious stuff?

I’m not anti private, my eldest DD went to one for 2 years at Prep stage. However performance wise, whether they are better than the local State depends entirely on the local State. The idea that Private is always better is nonsensical and depends entirely which Private or what State.

I’m assuming that this friend didn’t herself go up a Private school? Speaking as someone who was privately educated, plenty of shy, unconfident and socially gawky children leave Private schools at age 18 every year. Nice manners you learn from your parents. My old school network hasn’t benefitted me in the least outside of a few nice parties. And quite honestly speaking as my mother would say ‘well’ has done me as many disservice’s as it has favours.

Quite honestly I really wouldn’t give this any further thought beyond disengaging from a rather appalling snob.

Liam436, your blanket statement that “private schools today are a scam” is just as ridiculous as the OP’s friend’s view.

FWIW, my DD has SEN and the very reason we moved her from our supposedly outstanding state comp was that they refused to accommodate her ALN, despite a legal duty to do so.
Off rolling students who aren’t going to make the grade happens in state schools, you know.

Going to any old private school isn’t worth the money. Going to one of the best is worth the money. Depends if you have the money though. You would need to sell your house so really you don’t. Stay put and enjoy the house.

I think you are prickly about your friend because she hit a nerve. You have listed here for reassurance. She has different views to you. My DDs boarded and now that school is circa £39,000 pa. The poster above who thought £25,000 would get you top class boarding is deluded! Obviously private education means more to your friend than you but is it total fall out over this? That’s a bit too far I think. What happened to tolerance of other views. Laugh it off and get a big new car. She will get the message then. Cars over children I say. Every time!

@PresentingPercy, while I wholeheartedly agree we should be tolerant of other people’s views and how boring it would be if our friends all thought as we did (like living in an echo chamber), I think you are being far more charitable and nicer than I would be about any friend directly implying I was doing my children a disservice by allowing them to mix with a working class demographic!

I’m assuming that this friend didn’t herself go up a Private school? Speaking as someone who was privately educated, plenty of shy, unconfident and socially gawky children leave Private schools at age 18 every year. Nice manners you learn from your parents. My old school network hasn’t benefitted me in the least outside of a few nice parties. And quite honestly speaking as my mother would say ‘well’ has done me as many disservice’s as it has favours I could have written this. Particularly if you have a bright child with a good work ethic, there is no need to go privately. A lot of professionals can't afford to privately educate nowadays, so assure your friend (if you can bear to speak to her again) that your DC won't catch 'oik' and transfer it to her children.

Well she's really unkind in her shit stirring, isn't she?

Does she have DC and where do they go to school?

No, do not sell your house and spend the money. Do you even have a private school nearby they you like the look of on paper? What is your local state school like?

Anyone who thinks method of funding the school outweighs what individual schools are actually like is a fool. And I would be very wary of someone who was proposing such a massive change to your family budget, based solely on stereotype

Being able to interact comfortably with people from all walks of life is precisely the reason we chose the good local comp for our kids.

Mind you, your friend has just voiced the reason that many people privately hold as why they choose private, or at least a substantial factor in their decision. Most will never admit this as they realise it's deeply classist.

To be absolutely frank, your friend sounds like a spiteful cunt.
Send your child to the state school and bin off the elitist twat.

Education is one of those things that everyone has an opinion about. You need to work out what your opinion is and do that. FWIW we could have sent ours privately but chose not to. You can add an awful lot of additional value to a state school education for 45k a year if you need to eg if you want them to have great sporting opportunities .

If the friend had said the local school had loud progress 8, lots of children who were disruptive and poor teaching and resources, what would you have said then? I know people who didn’t like that we privately educated DDs. Getting above ourselves etc. So friends have opinions and sometimes you don’t like them. We didn’t lose any friends and rose above the criticism. It’s just life.

Poor performance issues, underfunded facilities and some disruptive behaviour - well, obviously you’d listen @PresentingPercy & would weigh up the individual school and appreciate your friends input (even if ultimately you didn’t agree with it. However a blanket statement in State schools relating to the undesirability of mixing with Working Class children?! Something else!

Friends of course have different opinions they are entirely entitled too, completely agree and we don’t always have to agree with them. Personally, I like strong women who know their own minds. However, unlikely I think that someone with such a noxious classist view would ever be a friend of mine in the first place. Certainly older members of my own family hold extremely class ridden attitudes but as the line goes, you can’t choose your family but you can your friends.

Size of house etc is irrelevant, after all it's the equity that counts!

She is right that opportunities are better at private schools and there's a lot less disruptive behaviour (because they have been kicked out) pupils tend to be more motivated because their parents are more encouraging. My kids were state educated but if I could go back in time I would have sr t them private at 11. One of my DD's struggled terribly with the disruption in the classroom and has left her seriously anxious

It would entirely depend on the schools. Mine are at an outstanding comprehensive, the behaviour is generally excellent, the teaching 90% excellent and the ethos of the school is exactly what I want for my kids. We are very close to some of the best privately schools in the country and I’m lucky to have had the means to put my kids through them if I want to. My ex and I both went through private education from 4.

As my eldest finishes school he and virtually all his friends are sitting on RG uni offers. The less academic kids still have really good uni offers and he’s happy confident and ambitious. He said to me the other day “I’ve got exactly the same GCSE results, the same A level predictions and the same uni offers as my friends in private, what was the point of paying” I did say to him that he might have got a bit more music (no musical talent) and a lot more sport that he would have definitely embraced but £200k more of it. Almost certainly not. If your state schools are good then ignore the hearsay of your friend

there's a lot less disruptive behaviour (because they have been kicked out) pupils tend to be more motivated because their parents are more encouraging.. I don't think that always follows if the school needs the fees. I don't think your 'encouragement' comment follows either.

@motogogo - “ pupils tend to be more motivated because their parents are more encouraging.”

Agree with @OhHarry. What a silly assertion that parents of State educated children are less encouraging of their children!

She sounds like an ignorant, snobbish twat. I'd ditch the friend and send your kids to the state school as planned.

If your kids are bright and happy with their current friends you don’t need a private school IMO and it’s easier to get into a good uni as they increasingly contextualising. In fact private is a positive disadvantage. My DS has an Oxbridge offer I am certain he would NOT have got if he had been private...

I do accept the opportunities and environment will be better, but overall academic achievement and lifetime prospects will I be damaging my children’s future?!

I'm privately educated while my kids are state educated and I have no regrets about that.

They were educated with peers of similar academic ability. If they were struggling then I could have brought in tutors as their school day was shorter. FWIW our school often sends someone to Oxford or Cambridge and there are many Russell Group offers too. My dd is predicted A star AA this summer and I don't think that a private education would have meant 3x A*

Private schools have problems that the state schools have too eg drugs (more pocket money means ability to buy drugs in bigger quantities sooner) and sexual assault (remember the Everyone's Invited website?) Obviously there's plenty of kids in both who avoid that kind of thing but you're not guaranteeing that your kid can avoid this by going private.

Lifetime Prospects - do you mean stuff like the Old Boys Network? I suspect that you need to go to a top tier school like Eton or Westminster for it to be a real thing and that the average private won't buy that kind of access.

Opportunities - possibly. Depends on the private school but I would have liked the choice to explore stuff like pre-U for my kids. I know that they are fine doing the traditional A-levels then uni but it would be nice to have that choice. If finances permit you could consider private at 16?

Is your friend private school educated? Some people think that paying inevitably means a better service when the reality is that both private and state options vary a lot and it depends on what the child is like. Some would like to be pushed further and harder while others do better in a more nurturing environment.

Only you know your local schools and you should be rethinking "friends" who judge like this.