SW London boys 11+ 2022 entry

[Sweetnhappy]

Hi, my DS is in year 5 and we're struggling with not being able to see schools in person. We're having a think about where to apply and at the moment KCL is a favourite geographically but we haven't seen it so don't have a feel for the vibe. We went to see Hampton and KGS before the first lockdown without DS and liked them both. The Emanuel tours booked so quickly when they were released a few weeks ago, I think they are releasing more slots soon. Just wondering if anyone can give us a feeling of the vibe of these schools. Does anyone know what is happening with the headteacher at Kings? They seem to have an acting head at the moment.

We also have offer from Tiffins now and as someone said, this is a good problem and first world problem to have. But we are unable to decide now between Hampton, RGS and Tiffin.

We are letting go off Reeds and KGS.

@Oldmonk , as a Hampton parent I would say if you have a full fees place at a private school go for Tiffin. If you have an academic scholarship at any of the privates you are considering go back and ask if there is any more they can do fees wise. The privates will know you are considering Tiffin hence the late response. Tiffin is a great school and you will save £200,000+!

[quote hockeygrass]@Oldmonk , as a Hampton parent I would say if you have a full fees place at a private school go for Tiffin. If you have an academic scholarship at any of the privates you are considering go back and ask if there is any more they can do fees wise. The privates will know you are considering Tiffin hence the late response. Tiffin is a great school and you will save £200,000+! [/quote]
After much hair pulling last night and thus morning, we're leaning more and more towards Tiffin. Even DS's current school is recommending Tiffin (over City Boys). Deadline for City is 9am tomorrow.

@hockeygrass really interested in why you say Tiffin over Hampton.

Been agonising over this decision ourselves looking at both schools, and Hampton appears to come up better for facilities/ resources, academic results and extra-curricular opportunities.

Your advice implies there’s not much difference? As a Hampton Parent do you really feel that way?

My ds didn't sit Tiffin so I didn't have the decision to make but in his class there aren't many dc who also got in to Tiffin and chose Hampton. Of course the facilities are better in the private sector but it's a lot of money for possibly the same academic results and university destinations. It depends on what you are looking for and your finances.

DS didn’t sit Tiffin as we are too far away. I would note there are many ways to measure outcomes and that whether you regard the various schools as similar or not academically depends on how you interpret them.

Oxford and Cambridge publish detailed data by school of places offered. I’ve done some analysis of the different schools for 2016-2020; not because I think that you choose a school based on whether they will get your child into Oxbridge or not, but because I think Oxbridge offer rates are one possible way of judging a combination of two things: the overall ability of the cohort and how well the most able students are taught and stretched.

My calculations (which are a bit approximate as exact numbers in each school in each year may vary and I might have not got these quite right) show the following % got Oxbridge offers over 2016 to 2020:

Westminster 40%
KCS Wimbledon 24%
RGS Guildford 19%
Hamptons 12.5%
Tiffins 7.5%

Westminster is in a league of its own (didn’t look at girls schools, but think only SPGS is similar)!

@11Plus2022 , it's worth adding the Tiffin Boys sixth form is mixed - currently @ 30% girls. I don't think it Sways the results either way etc.

@11Plus2022 or can just look at points/grades as not everyone wants to go to Oxbridge (or can afford to study there). Although, I guess that's more difficult given all the recent Covid-influenced grading given over the last two years.

@Parentingfor2, yes, A level results over the last 2 years are impossible to interpret!

I know not everyone wants to go to Oxbridge; but that will be true - perhaps for different reasons - of all the above schools. I was using the percentages as a (very rough and inexact) way of judging overall ability and academic teaching.

Also, for info, it can actually be cheaper to study at Oxbridge than at many other Russell Group universities, as the wealthy colleges can provide reasonably priced accommodation, food etc.

KCS and Tiffin look on a par to me for 2021?

KCS 25
Tiffin 22

www.tiffinschool.co.uk/_docs/sixthform/Leavers%20Universities%20&%20Employers%202021.pdf

www.kcs.org.uk/media/6541/uk-and-us-university-destinations-2020-21.pdf

Haven't checked the results of others but don't forget Oxbridge is increasingly under pressure to offer to state educated pupils.

There's a good thread about oxbridge running at the moment and how it's all luck of the draw and not even something that particularly changes your life more often that not (most graduates doing normal jobs just like everyone else, accountant across the road for instance studied Geography at Oxford and went on PWC and became an accountant, then Shell and not particularly high up, just normal job etc).

Then also consider that Harris Academy Westminster got 44 Oxbridge offers in 2020 and 23 Oxbridge offers in 2021. OK, so a decline but still on a par with KCS etc.

I'd say the tide is turning quite quickly...

@AndNowNo, I am not making any judgements about the value of an Oxbridge degree when compared with other very good courses. But the reality is that many of the most able students at those schools will apply to either Oxford or Cambridge.

I haven’t looked at 2021 as it’s not available yet from Oxford and Cambridge. Individual years can vary quite a bit.

If it’s of interest, what the school websites don’t tell you that the Oxbridge stats do is the percentage of those applying who get offers for each school. For the 5 years I calculate:

Westminster 46%
KCS 37%
RGS 36%
Hamptons 34%
Tiffin 30%

On this measure all except Westminster are pretty similar - and the actual subjects applied for will matter too.

Any one else choosing between KCS and Wilson ? Lucky to have got both our top indie and our top grammar options and keen to hear from anyone who may be in the same position or have experience of both .

@Thisonesfortheroad personally I wouldn’t be drawn in too much into the discussion on the number of Oxbridge places. The choice between Tiffin and Hampton is a tricky one but ultimately (in my view) it comes down to a question of (1) your financial position and (2) what your DS’s preference is. If it’s a huge financial stretch to send to Hampton then I’d go for Tiffin. If not then Hampton on the basis that it offers much wider extra curricular options. FWIW we would pick Hampton given that choice, but everyone’s circumstances are v different. Good luck choosing! Remember the fact that your DS got an offer from both means he will do well at either (or elsewhere) so don’t stress too much!

@11Plus2022 I have no judgement either way whatever people decide is right for them, is right for them, but just posting to be aware of the changing situation.

I think this article describes it better than I did.

www.varsity.co.uk/news/20981

I'm not sure data even from a couple of years ago is going to be a guide for the future.

I agree that when you have a top super selective state grammar grammar offer and a full fees or small scholarship independent offer, the big determinant is money. Yes, the private school will have better facilities and smaller classes and probably provide a more comfortable experience, but £20k+ is a lot for that if you can get a top quality education, with a (in all liklihood) overall brighter cohort for free.

If you’ve got plenty of cash and sacrifices for school fees will be small or zero, then absolutely go for the fee paying option. If it means you’ll make sacrifices on your pension and have to work 5 years longer, or not have holidays, or it will impact the rest of the family, then I’d say it’s not worth the fees.

The second determining factor for deciding would be distance. If the state grammar is far away and a tricky journey, it can make the fees with paying….but only again if you can afford them with small or no sacrifices. A hideous long journey is worth avoiding if you can.

The super selective state schools do an amazing job on limited funding. Their cohorts a extremely bright and generally have less of a ‘tail’ than even the top independents. It’s simply down to numbers applying over place….the fact if fees always reduces the pool and so makes the school not quite so selective. The vast majority of kids in the super selective are from middle class backgrounds with supportive parents and similar aspirations for their kids to the independent schools. Often both sets of parents live next door to each other.

Given all these schools offer good academic education and great results are pretty much assured, you have to consider what your fees get you and if it’s worth them. There will be lots of lovely things. Their ‘worth’ largely depends on how much sacrifice you have to make to get them. If the fees mean small sacrifices such as only replacing your car every 4 years instead if every 3, or only having 3 holidays abroad instead of 4, or not building an extension you’d like, you might well be prepared to sacrifice those things for the facilities and rather different experience. The ‘cost’ in terms of lifestyle isn’t too great. If alternatively those £20k fees mean remaining in a hosue which is far too small, taking a second job, not having holidays for 5 years, stopping oension contributions….I’d say the ‘cost’ in terms of sacrifice is too high..but that’s a personal judgement. And if the cost of the fees means living intnhe edge so you fear your boiler breaking down and being able to replace it, I’d say someone would be mad to choose the independent option if they have a super selective state grammar offer.

Every year, middle class families who are comfortable in decent jobs, but who’s aren’t really well off face this dilemma. They receive their independent school offers first and often scholarship offers too, and sometimes even a small bursary offer. They love the independent schools, but when they get the highly sought after state grammar place they go for that. They know their kids will get a great education and the ‘nice to haves’ can be managed without, and that their current comfortable lifestyle can continue without the fee burden. Most don’t regret it.

@confusedmommy My DS is at Wilson's - it's a brilliant school and we couldn't be happier. Two of his closest friends there chose it over KCS with no regrets. Feel free to PM me.

Thanks @WombatChocolate @travelturtle @hockeygrass and everyone else for your input - lots of food for thought.

We’re not supremely well off, and there would definitely be sacrifices, despite having only one DC to look after - also worry about what happens if our circumstances changed - can see that we need to work out where we draw the line for the value we see at Hampton. I was just surprised I guess to hear a current parent advising against The school.

I can see that having compromises everywhere else in life for the sake of a school won’t be giving DS the best life experience!

TBH if it was just about facilities, other schools would still be on the table, so it is the balance of stretch and extras were weighing up…DS just very keen on Hampton since seeing it. clocks ticking!

@confusedmommy and others with Wilson’s/RGS/Hampton/KCL offers.
I have one at Wilson’s and two at RGS.
RGS/Hampton/KCL are amazing schools but cost a lot of money. If you have a choice of Wilson’s/Tiffin go there-they provide exactly the same amazing education for free. Wilson’s music and sport are also as great as top private school, especially football.

Interesting feedback @musicathome76..considering you have boys both at Independent and Grammar Schools. Apart from academics, what are your thoughts on pastoral care and overall development. Do you see much difference? And difference in class size?

Very similar again: Lower in the school Wilson’s has bigger class size (32) vs RGS (25).
Pastoral care seems very good at both schools. Lots of seminars on mental health, diversity and inclusivity. Really nothing much between them.

Just to add - that is for Year 7 and 8 and for some subjects.
For DT, art and music it is 22; and for drama, cookery and public speaking enrichment, the class size is 16.
They then start GCSEs in Year 9 and the classes are 24 or fewer from then. Lower again at A-level depending on numbers.

Oh and 2 form tutors per 32 form class in Years 7 and 8, which then splits so there are 16 per form class in Year 9 onwards

Yes, class sizes will be smaller, especially further up the school. The facilities will certainly be nicer. There will be a greater desire to please the paying parent and probably swifter replies to communication etc.

But on the bottom line things like actual teaching, results and having a good range of clubs and activities, it will be broadly the same. People can pick and find little differences…they will be there, but the question is if it’s £20k of differences.

Sure, £20k is worth the stretch if your alternative is a crappy school that you really didn’t want. But when you’ve got one of the best state schools in the land available, unless you won’t miss most of the £20k, it seems an extremely expensive few extra ‘nice to haves’.

I say all this as an independent school parent. I had a place at a top comprehensive - really highly sought after, successful and difficult to get into. Kids do really well there and come out well rounded and go into good universities and good lives. I chose the independent, which might surprise you, in light of what I’m saying. The reason was that we were offered a substantial discount and also that the fees we had to pay wer very affordable for us in our circumstances. We were lucky in that the remaining fees wouldnt make a big difference to our lives. If they had made even a slightly bigger difference I’d have been happy to take the state option. And actually, even now a I wonder if some of the benefits of being there would be have been really worth it. I’m thinking if the real genuine benefits if mixing with a broader social mix and not being in a bubble so much. Of course these grammar schools and the top highly sought after Comps don’t have a huge social mix anyway, but it’s certainly broader than most independents. There will be children who are from average and less well off backgrounds amongst the many middle class kids….and personally I think that’s a good thing. One thing I worry a bit about, is my DC with their Prep education and then independent senior education, really haven’t spent much time in the real world. They go to Scouts and Guides, which is good for a bit if wider mixing, but really they have little sense of much of the realities of life, and I think a complete education teaches you to mix effectively with all types. I worry a bit that’s been missed out, although we do try hard at home to give a sense of the bigger picture. Just saying this, because in my mind it’s not just that the state option has downsides (and with these super schools there aren’t many anyway) but also that there can be advantages too.

The gains of a great independent over a super selective fab grammar are there but marginal. Parents can get overly focused on the minutiae of 4 extra students per class, 2 extra rugby teams, a theatre (that their kid will never use) and build up this stuff in their minds so it becomes huge and somehow does justify £25k. Fine if you’ve got it just sitting there and dint need it.not so much if there will be an impact, and even if there won’t, lots of people decide that a house deposit of over 150k might just be a better use if the cash anyway.

Does anyone know if the LU reserve list has moved yet and/or are there people still waiting on it?

@travelturtle it must have moved but I suspect the big movement will be when the deadline closes.