Indie girls school, no oxbridge 2019

[LilyTheMink]

We are looking at senior options for our dd. She is bright, not top of her class in everything, but all round scholarship level according to her head.
There is a very local girls school which went through a good patch a few years ago. I've just had a look at their 2019 leavers destinations- 46 to universities and not 1 to Oxford of Cambs.
I KNOW it's not the be all and end all, but it is used as an indicator of academic success.
The other schools we are looking at ger 15% Oxbridge, but are further away from us - think 45 mins on mini bus.
What are your thoughts on paying (admittedly less than the 15% place) for a school with 0 Oxbrige for a bright child......is it lacking ambition/opportunities for her?

Personally it does put me off paying for private if they aren’t getting anyone into Oxbridge. Private schools are expensive and I just think with all that extra support and with pupils coming from families which clearly value education, how can they not get any pupils in. Especially compared to state schools with wider or non-selective intakes who manage to get a few students in.

If I pay for private I want to know that my child can achieve their potential in an academic sense as well as more broadly. If there is no or little track record of Oxbridge personally that tells me that top level academic achievement or stretch is lacking. Or the school intake is snobby enough to look down on Oxbridge (too keen on widening access) and favour the unis for “posh people”. I still remember sitting in my Cambridge college having lunch during interview season and overhearing a couple of students saying they liked Durham because you can tell where people are from

@Treeblossoms It’s not the school that gets you in, it’s the individual themselves. Many many children from state schools go to Oxbridge each year. Some will have help from their school, some won’t.

I really struggle with the concept that getting a place on a medicine degree is somehow indicative that the school isn’t able to get children to achieve their academic potential if it’s not Oxbridge. Many students prefer to train at the London Universities due to access to a wider range of specialities on their doorstep. This is my point. Oxbridge is not the only indicator of how much top students are stretched or how academic it is. Granted that if an independent is consistently sending people to do Justin Bieber Studies at Nobody University then you can read a lot into that. But if they are heading in large numbers to highly sought after courses at Russell Group universities (you have to get the same grades to study maths at Warwick as Oxbridge for example) then the school is doing a great job on the academic side.

If, however, you believe that in paying for a private education somehow buys you a place or gives you an advantage then you’re part of a bigger problem.

I absolutely do not think paying for private buys you a place and am fully supportive of all the steps Oxbridge are taking to widen access and hope for more on that front in years to come. Point taken about getting onto competitive courses at other universities. In which case it’s worth a conversation with the school to understand their take on why no one opted for or got into Oxbridge for a number of years running.

As Oxbridge widens access to pupils as states schools, the link between private education and these universities will diminish - which I feel is a good thing.

The degree to which private schools select at 11+ is another factor. Some are less selective than the most competitive grammar schools, so will not achieve as many Oxbridge places. If the school that you are considering isn't that selective or doesn't weed out pupils along the way, it is inevitable that it won't achieve as many offers.

Just wondering, how many posters on this thread went to oxbridge themselves or have experienceof the selection process?

I did

Can you tell us how important a factor the (name of the) school is?

Then the other factors like the importance of how much and how good is the prep for exams and interviews?

It seems strange to me that the same child at different schools would have a vastly different chance of getting in.

I'm thinking if you send your child to a highly selective indie then swap to a highly selective grammar, they'll take the entire educational history into account? And how different will they view both schools?

You need to address those points on a separate post. There are several extremely knowledgeable Oxbridge people who could answer that. @goodbyestranger

My take is that you must take each application from any school as individual. Personality at interview cannot be taught. There can be guidance for tests. A string of A*s doesn’t guarantee success. Look at the posts on HE about another route to greatness.

The school should be judged on overall quality not just Oxbridge. If Oxbridge type dc choose to go elsewhere it might be that other schools look more appealing for those dc. However a really good senior school might well have blips in Oxbridge. My local one gets one girl in about every 5 years. It’s hugely popular! We are a grammar county. Other schools might compete with ultra selective independents for the brightest. There is though great merit in being the slightly bigger fish in the smaller pond and having access to all sorts of other things that provide a broad education.

Hmmmm. Ok

I went to a (good) state school with no specific relationships with Cambridge colleges so I couldn’t really comment. I would suggest you look at the track records of the schools in question and also ask them if they have a relationship with any colleges which might help. Personally I think the most important thing is for your child to have a genuine passion for the subject so I would cultivate that, no matter what school he/she attends.

So do I.

Get past the exams and then it cones down to interview, fit, personality and passion. Of course that's where a lot of bias creeps in, but crucially the part where I think which school you went to matters the least. Those couple of 20 minute interviews.

@samosamo I went to Cambridge many many years ago from a bog standard comp. Nobody would have heard of it unless you are local, either back then or now.

My school name had absolutely no bearing on my admittance. Likewise, apart from one half hour interview practice session with a teacher who hadn’t been to Oxbridge, there was no detailed prep.

I was quietly confident in my abilities. Not necessarily a conversation starter but once in a discussion could very much hold my own. I had a wide range of academic and extra curricular interests and I got to talk about how I thought the college I had chosen was a good fit for me (back in the days of paper prospectuses). I was asked some questions about stuff I had learned in my A level classes and then some more philosophical and ethical questions around science based stuff. Not stuff you could learn in a book but they wanted to see how your brain worked. Those sections weren’t about knowledge, but your thought processes.

I thought I right royally messed up on one question but I got in. After I had started my tutor said he had found my answer very interesting and I was asked to explore it further in one of my written essays, so it’s not about getting the answer right.

There were several girls from SPGS in my college. I can see why the school has very high Oxbridge stats - because the girls who go there are independent thinkers. They were almost certainly that way before they even went to SPGS (and that’s how they got in). I honestly don’t believe they got into Cambridge because they went to SPGS. They got in because they are very bright and free thinkers.

So, whilst I agree that a school can help with grades and interview prep, if you haven’t got “it” then it won’t make a blind bit of difference what school you go to.

Yep yep, same. Though I can't say I was as impressed with some of the indie school kids as you were!

Choose the school on the basis of whichever one you like the feel of better and not on Oxbridge stats, for reasons everyone else has stated. As an Oxbridge graduate I'd agree that most (not all) people there had some special quality, the ones from the top private schools had got places at those schools because that quality had been spotted, not because the school implanted it in them.

If your dd goes to the non-Oxbridge school and you decide during her time there she is very academic and the school isn't providing enough stimulus you can always move her at sixth form.

All schools should be able to spot potential and try to give dc the best shot. It’s always important to realise that some dc would prefer LSE, Imperial and other universities and don’t see Oxbridge as the ultimate aim.

I think it can be more enlightening to look at subjects and destinations. Are girls going to study maths and sciences? Where? What about Durham, Bristol, Bath, UCL, Loughborough, Warwick and other desirable unis? Are they studying Law and History? This could indicate a very good school and girls with a rounded education.

Having met lots of people who went to Oxbridge I'm a bit ambivalent about whether my children go there. I'm on the STEM side so I tend to look more at how many go on to do medicine, vet school, LSE, Imperial, Bath, Bristol etc.
My nephew did Engineering and my sister was guiding him towards Durham, Edinburgh etc as these are Russel Group but for engineering there's a different group of unis to look at. I would pay attention to not only where they go but what they do..

You will find at the less academic schools, few will ever get to LSE or Imperial and there won’t be loads of doctors or vets. I say this as someone whose Dd attended lower league girls’ schools. That doesn’t mean that no girl goes but often it was the overseas pupils. The others were often very successful but you have to look at a broad spectrum of what success means. At lesser academic schools it won’t be strings of A*s. You can also find that DC move on for 6th form around London. There can be quite a churn. What is most important, is what suits DC.

According to the 2019 admissions statistics on Oxford's website, they had 23,000 undergraduate applications and took 3,300 so it could be it was just a year they didn't get anyone one in rather than a failing in the school. No one from DS's comp got in that year either even though they have always had at least 2 or 3 kids go every year.

My father really wanted my sister to go to Cambridge but they didn't do the course she wanted to do. I would have been pretty pleased if DS had tried for Oxbridge but neither Oxford nor Cambridge did the course he wanted to do. These things come in to play too.

PresentingPercy I'm currently looking for a senior school for DD Can you advised which schools are considered 'top league' and which you consider 'lower league'. I can imagine say CLC and Wycombe Abbey are considered top league. Anywhere else? And the CO-ED schools which would you consider 'top league' please?

Gosh! I’m not a schools adviser but if you look at the top 50 schools in the independent league tables you won’t go far wrong! St Paul’s Girls, Rugby, Oundle, Benenden, St Mary’s Ascot, Downe House would tick lots of boxes. Loads in the West Country too.

I’m well aware there are great schools such as Tudor Hall, Queenswood, Heathfield, Stowe, Bloxham, Bedales, Oakham etc that won’t have top academics throughout but offer a great deal in so many other ways and where DC can thrive and be happy. Which is what most of us want. That’s why it’s not always the best plan to chase the best performing on exams passed but to look much more widely for a broad education and what DC might be interested in.

Let's not beat around the bushes here. If a school sends a bucket load to Oxbridge every year, it is an ACADEMIC school. Any school that sends a trailer load to Oxbridge is significantly more Academic that one that sends none or 1/2 yearly. That's the reason why it's same set of schools that sends trailer loads every year in year out.

Also take no notice of anyone that tells you maybe the students at a particular school prefers and therefore only attend unis like LSE,Imperial,UCL et al. Schools that sends a sizeable chunk to those calibre of Unis will also sends atleast a couple or three to Oxbridge. Ditto medics. Find me a school that sends a good number to medical schools but none to Oxbridge.

Having said all of that, school teachers are not magicians. The amount of pupils a school sends to oxbridge and other Top 10 unis directly correlates with how selective it is/was(both at 11/13+ and again at 16). St Paul's for instance makes sure you pass it's incredibly rigorous and selective exams first before any thinking out of box comes into play.

Exactly. So I’m not sure why parents expect Oxbridge from fairly easy to get into schools? They know they are not WA or SPGS!

So if you look at which girls schools are in the top 50 for A level A/A* results in 2019 (in descending order);

St Pauls Girls
Wycombe Abbey
Godolphin & Latymer
Guildford HS
Oxford HS
St Marys Ascot
City of London Girls
Lady Eleanor Holles
South Hampstead High
Edward VI HS for Girls
Habs Askes for Girls
James Allen
North London Collegiate
Cheltenham Ladies College
Withington Girls
Wimbledon HS
Manchester HS
Putney HS
St Albans HS
Channing
St Gabriel's

Downe House and St Marys Calne fall just outside the top 50. It seems most of the girls schools in the top 50 are London day schools with a few exceptions (CLC, WA). Of the top 50 schools, 33 are day schools. Rodean and Badminton make the top 100.

I have found an anomaly.. I see Malvern College got about 25% A/A at A levels in 2019 but Tatler reports 10% into Oxbridge. Meanwhile Bromsgrove School gets about double the % of A/A but apparently only 1% into Oxbridge. Can anyone explain that to me?

I went to Oxford from a non selective state school in the 80s so no recent experience.

Our school selection for our kids has been to find a school that while academically rigorous offers a holistic education. We have been fortunate have a (non selective) state school that provides this. The school usually gets 1 or 2 into Oxbridge each year.

I personally wouldn't select a school at 11 for this as it puts huge pressure on a child at 11. You could always move school at 16 if required but if you choose a good school and your child is bright I think they have a good chance. I think the whole idea of the new admission policies is to avoid mass admissions from schools of heavily prepared kids.

And as others have said there is much more to Uni than Oxbridge!!