Whitgift fees vs local girls independent schools

[Treeblossoms]

Why are Whitgift fees so much higher than the local girls independent schools? 21k vs 16k at Old Palace and Croydon High School. Are the girls schools just seen as less desirable /prestigious because they are girls schools?? What do you actually get at Whitgift for your 5k extra compared to the girls school? If it’s better facilities and tuition, is there a London girls independent school that is equivalent to Whitgift?

For some reason the differential fills me with indignation! I want my children to have an equivalent education and, assuming DS and DD pass the tests, it doesn’t sit well with me to be paying 25% more on one than the other.

@Treeblossoms

The sad thing is that I can’t see any of this changing any time soon. It’s really no wonder women don’t do as well in the workplace as men, if, in many cases, they’re getting less investment all the way through. As we all know, doing well in the workplace is less about academics and more about confidence and believing all yourself, qualities that are boosted by activities like drama and sport.

So if you lived in Croydon or nearby and were sending a boy to Whitgift, where would you send a girl for an equivalent experience? Or is it not really possible without going for boarding (which isn’t something I’d consider)?

To be honest, I don't think you can find a private school for girls in Croydon the same level as Whitgift/Trinity. I would suggest to pay attention to grammar schools in Sutton (Wallington/Nonsuch) or Orpington (Newstead Woods). Few years ago my DS sat Sutton grammars and Whitgift/Trinity as they are all more or less at the same level academically. This year my DD sat only grammars and none of the privates - I could not justify paying £££ just to go to private school. PS: the only suggestion I have - Caterham School (co-ed), but not sure how academic it is, facilities are great though

I honestly couldn’t send DS private and not DD. I went to a top grammar school and when I got to a (elite) university and then work at a prestigious company following that, I really noticed the difference in confidence and polish between myself and the others and it was a real knock to my confidence (moreso in the workplace than at university to be fair). I’m not saying this is universally the case of course but personally I cannot fathom giving one child an additional advantage (in terms of their confidence and self-esteem as they go through life) and not the other, particularly when the other is a girl.

Whitgift fees have to finance the elite sports programme. The leads for each sport are successful (well-paid) sportsman in their own right and huge amounts are spent on the grounds with relatively expensive staff ensuring e.g. the cricket pitches are top notch.

And of course the boys who benefit most from the sports programme will have hugely reduced fees.

Meanwhile somewhere like Croydon High has much less impressive facilities, a much much smaller sports team who want to do well but focus on the sports scholars meaning by Year 9, a lot of the girls are disengaging - which saves even more money.

Old Palace's sports provision isnt as good and mostly offsite,which presumably keeps costs down too.

@Treeblossoms sadly, as you say, the only real alternative is boarding. That's what I ended up doing for DD. She would not have got nearly the same level of education "everything" otherwise.

Or travel into central London and look at somewhere like St Paul's? And for sixth form, Westminster is excellent for girls.

I know a few Whitgift families whose daughters go to Woldingham.

Surely it's just supply and demand. So that will include availability of places (both independent and grammar - eg slightly more boys grammar places in Sutton than girls) and whether parents value Whitgift facilities more. Also may be skewed by bursaries - ie higher % of fees waived by bursaries then higher full fees to make up for it. Difference in demand as more boys than girls (about 105 boys born to every 100 girls) - maybe also about what parents want - but that's not necessarily prejudice. My DC are at state schools and we didn't even consider private for DD as no concerns about behaviour etc at the girls grammar she attends, but we did consider for DS due to behaviour at his boys school. I can see others thinking similarly.

@GoldenRuby thanks, Woldingham looks good!

I commend you wanting to give your kids the same opportunities but I agree with comments further up that the same opportunity is not necessarily about price tag. There are lots of reasons that a school like Whitgift can charge more than Croydon High that are not to do with quality of experience. Several of those have already been mentioned, although I know of several staff who have moved from Whitgift to GDST schools so the pay at the latter is comparable. I would steer clear of direct comparrison as there are many ways in which they differ. Croydon High tends to serve local families whereas some Whitgift boys come out from London. GDST girls are less likely to travel out from London as there are also London-based GDST schools. That makes a difference to price amongst other factors.
I assume your children are not identical, so their schools don't need to be either. I would say having lived locally for 30 years that both schools pride themselves on being experts in bringing out the best in boys/girls respectively. So I would go and look at each on their own merits and decide if that environment feels right for your child.

Thanks @PrincessofPowerShera, all fair points.

I agree that the price does not reflect the quality in many cases.

And of course it depends what you mean by quality and what you think fees pay for of course too.

Do you equate higher fees to higher results? Some schools like Guildford High which are in GDST charge less than nearby boys schools and are consistently in the the top 5 in country.

Do you equate fees to facilities? Some schools have amazing facilities but their fees aren’t quite so high...sometimes they have an endowment which means they don’t need to charge quite so much. But often those with amazing facilities charge more and they need to be kept up. But the question is whether YOUR child will use all those facilities. Often you pay for things YOUR child never uses.

It’s very hard to compare provision between schools exactly. They will have different class sizes and those vary across subjects too. Their spending on things like books will vary and exactly what’s included will vary, such as lunches or some trips. Some will do a wider range of activities and some will splash out in the parents at parents’ events more. Some will be spending more fee money on bursaries and scholarships. Some are engaged in very expensive building programmes which won’t come to fruition until your child leaves. So it is very hard to compare fully.

This does remind me if something a friend of mine told her kids when they went to an independent school. She said the music and the sport provision were the big things that differentiated the school from its state counterparts, just because of the extent of that provision. She knew there were some state grammars which offered an equal academic education. Therefore her kids were told that they needed to be involved in the sport and music. Beyond that it was up to them, but if they ignored those opportunities (which she had paid for) then she felt paying the fees was a very expensive option. I always thought it was an interesting point and remain surprised how many children at fee paying schools don’t actually do very much if any of the things available to them, especially as they get older. It seems a shame...but I guess kids often don’t appreciate the opportunities when they are there in front of them.

With some of our local Preps there is quite a difference in fees. It’s not especially a girl/boy thing. With those, where the fees can be double at some compared to others, it either seems to come down to having much better facilities, or sometimes being linked to a prestigious senior school and providing a smoother path from the Prep to it, that people pay for. Some of the cheaper Preps are pretty small and look extremely shabby now. Hi I think there is a trend for merger and closing down as there are probably too many. There were too many girls’ schools too a few years ago.

Pay at GDST schools generally isn’t especially competitive. They also offer their staff smaller discounts on fees than many independent schools.

Actually, boys schools or those that were boys schools and went mixed and are in HMC are often the best payers. This will partly explain some of the fee differences...although loads of things, especially local area and historic factors seem the biggest explainers of why fees can differ by a couple of £k per term or more.

AliMonkey

Surprised you had behavioural problems at your Boys grammar. Usually Grammars know how to "Manage out" problematic kids.

@Elij00 If you re-read my message you will see that I didn’t say DS is at a grammar. He isn’t. Unfortunately he is a bright but very anxious boy who was probably capable of a grammar but too anxious to try (and too anxious to get through any form of selection for a independent). Hence is at boys comp who talked the talk about discipline etc when you were choosing schools but once they are there you see they don’t follow through (and indeed when you challenge them re not actually enforcing their policies they shrug their shoulders and say “we do what we can but if they don’t get told at home we can’t do anything”). As you can tell it has not been a good experience but he cannot face starting at a new school due to his extreme anxiety. DD’s experience at her grammar has been excellent.

Have you looked at Woldingham girls they charge the equivalent in fees to Whitgift and lots of sisters of Whitgift boys go there. It's on the same train line. I have one ds at Whitgift and another at a less expensive school for no reason other than the other school suits him better. I don't think he is disadvantaged because I'm paying slightly less for him at all I think they are both extremely lucky to go to 2 lovely schools. Whitgifts facilities are fantastic and it is extremely popular so they charge what people are prepared to pay!

@AliMonkey

My bad. I read it as they both attend Grammar Schools. It's rather sad your Son and His classmates are forced to learn in that sort of condition because a minute few refuse to learn. Rather unfortunately though, the hands of Comp Heads are somewhat tied as they can't just simply exclude a Pupil without any proper justification(when I say justification, I mean done something really bad). As we all know, Comprehensives as the name suggests contain a much higher percentage of Pupils at that end of the spectrum than either Grammars and other selective schools.

Their hands are a bit tied you could say. Basically if your Kids are not clever/parent not sharp elbowed enough and you can't afford to go private, your options are quite limited.

@Elij00 I agree - and there seems to be a particular issue in DS’s class that they have had a number of new joiners who appear to have been excluded from other schools and DS’s school is then obliged to take them. Some seem to end up in the school’s “support unit”, others have done bad enough things (threaten someone with a screwdriver was one; set fire to the toilets was another) that they can be excluded - but then some other school has to take them - but I feel sorry for the child as well - I am sure that with the right support they could turn their lives around but instead they are in this endless cycle. And what worries me even more is that we are “a nice middle class area” so how much worse might it be in an area with more issues? And at least we have access to grammars (we’re just over the border from a grammar area) whereas in most of the country there isn’t that option.

I probably feel most sorry for the well behaved but less bright / middling students - whilst DS is unlikely to get the great grades he could have got elsewhere he is bright enough to do ok with some pushing/help from us but many will just fall through the cracks.

Sorry OP for going off topic!

Thirty years ago I went to Croydon High and my brother went to Whtigift. I was aware of the fee difference and felt resentful. Not of my parents, but of Whitgift, because it had a huge amount of money and kept it all for boys - just Trinity and Whitgift in the foundation then.

With the benefit of hindsight, i'd make three points.

First, more expensive doesn't mean better. CHS set me up well for life - decent grades, but more importantly confidence in myself and a sense that the world was a good place. In contrast, Whitgift failed my bro - didn't seem to care that a bright boy became disengaged and badly behaved. I'm sure things are different now, but I sense that Whitgift spends lots on frippery... e.g. peacocks, big scholarships to children from wealthy families.

Second, CHS has good sports facilities. However, with hindsight, Whitgift seemed to have more teams - rugby teams A-D. At CHS I didn't make the cut for the netball squad aged 11- I think there were only two teams, and the squad got games and training so they got better and better and no-one else had a hope of improving enough to join. For those of us that didn't make the cut it would have been great if they'd tried to help us find a sport we were good at, but PE was largely sports where i'd failed to make the squad. I think girls schools need to work hard to help girls find exercise they enjoy.

Finally, the solution is simple. Use the money saved on your daughters' education for extracurricular activities. Take her sailing, skiing, visit Japan to find some pokemon, give her a £4k violin or even a pet peacock.

I don’t think Woldingham will suit us after all. It’s seems very white and a bit too much of a high society school. We’re a mixed race Muslim family of commoners who earn well I think one of the Croydon schools will be better overall than sending DD somewhere she feels out of place. Yes to spending the extra money in other ways but no thanks to the pet peacock

CHS girls have brothers at Trinity and Whitgift, as well as other schools. I probably know more with Trinity brothers.

CHS 6th form carry out some activities with Whitgift. Trinity 6th form I'd co-ed so doesn't need a link with a girls school. Lots of CHS girls move to Trinity for 6th form.

Both CHS and Trinity are ethnically diverse.

Oh yes @Seeline, I do remember a year when the junior Whitgift boys had a disco with CHS girls - which surprised me as I thought they were doing everything with OP. But it makes sense to diversify their interactions.

@Treeblossoms Woldingham are hoping to have their late May open day in person, so it might be worth you looking around. My DD is in sixth form. I agree it is not as racially diverse as the Croydon schools. It's facilities are certainly more attractive/better than CHS and OP, but that doesn't mean it is high society. My DD attended a state primary, and although here are a few monied families at the school there are plenty of ordinary folk who work hard to afford the fees.

Sorry, I meant ethnically diverse...

To be honest it’s a while off for DD still, I just got thinking about it when considering schools for older DS and then looking at the girls school in comparison. I will survey the options again in a few years

Good luck with whatever you decide when the time comes!