Whitgift fees vs local girls independent schools

[Treeblossoms]

Why are Whitgift fees so much higher than the local girls independent schools? 21k vs 16k at Old Palace and Croydon High School. Are the girls schools just seen as less desirable /prestigious because they are girls schools?? What do you actually get at Whitgift for your 5k extra compared to the girls school? If it’s better facilities and tuition, is there a London girls independent school that is equivalent to Whitgift?

For some reason the differential fills me with indignation! I want my children to have an equivalent education and, assuming DS and DD pass the tests, it doesn’t sit well with me to be paying 25% more on one than the other.

@ChnandlerBong but it IS indirect discrimination in a number of ways.

Boys schools were generally founded much earlier. They have more grounds and space, even in urban areas. Therefore more sports facilities etc. They often have large endowments which mean they can offer more bursaries (something they boast about A LOT). Having said this the GDST as a whole is the largest bursary provider in the UK.

They are seen as more prestigious even when their results are on par. They mostly don't take boys in the sixth form but boys schools largely decided about 20 years ago that clever girls might be helpful for their results. So they lose students in the sixth form.

They charge higher fees and can therefore attract very well qualified staff more easily (not always, but recruitment is easier on the whole if you pay more, especially for certain subjects).

There are also endless lazy stereotypes about girls schools - they all have eating disorders, they are hothouses - because god forbid clever girls should be anything other than crazy hysterics.

OP is right to find this irritating. It might seem ridiculous when the opportunities in these girls schools are still stellar compared to the state sector etc but these differences are still there.

@Wobblybobblyboo well said

LizziesTwin I had the same. I went to a girls day school which was nice but my brother's boarding public school had a golf course and a river etc etc.

OP

You do realise that historically, that part of Croydon grew around the school. Meaning that Whitgift (and other schools) had an opportunity to be as big as they are.

Any other subsequent schools within the foundation would have to be based way outside London to get the same space as the main school. Trinity is much smaller, because it came about later, so is Old Palace.

It may all just be for practical reasons as it would cost a lot of money to buy off land now in London than it did years ago. So if they still want a school within the Croydon community it may not have been possible to match Whitgift.

Whitgift moved to its current location in 1931, centuries after it opened, but you could guess that they were confident enough to have money to expand. OP only joined the foundation in 1993. The foundation has added numerous labs, heated pool, AD&T facilities etc. I think they may grow it as time goes on.

Really in this case, I think it's more of a practical issue rather than discrimination against girls.

@Wobblybobblyboo ok yeah point taken.

I don't think the education the girls receive suffers though. While the public schools might be seen as more 'prestigious' the girls are quietly working hard and outperforming their brothers.

We actually pay about the same for our 2 despite ds's school having much lovelier facilities - which he singularly fails to take advantage of!

@Mummy194 I see what you mean. It’s unfortunate though. Hopefully over the years it will begin to equalise.

GDST have been asking donations from parents that aren't quite donations, more a bill. I'm guessing they've lost cohort due to cv.

If its any compensation the most expensive school I've found in my last 24 hours in Cheltenham Ladies College at £43k for a boarder which is higher than Shrewsbury School or Malvern College. And interestingly Malvern St James (all girls) has the same fees as Malvern College (mixed) £36k for a boarder.

Boys schools tend to have better sport facilities as boys play more sport and stay in sport longer. Girls tend to drop out of sport when they reach puberty. Just natural.
Re reputation, it's true that boys schools have longer history and more established alumni network.

£43k, that’s impressive

@Sashamia is it natural or is it environmental?

I’d say that Croydon high’s fees are cheap compared to most other schools rather than Whitgift being expensive. Very similar levels to LEH and Hampton further out of London and Wimbledon and Putney High further in. They have massive grounds etc so not surprisingly they’re more- I don’t see it as a boy/ girl thing.

@ChnandlerBong I think that girls' schools provide a great education - went to one, have worked in one. I guess I mean they do that despite the disparity often there in the fees and facilities. And they are also able to do this because girls overall achieve more highly up to 16 than boys, so they do have a helping hand from how capable the female 50% of the population is. Maybe that makes up for a lack of swimming pool!

Take the point mentioned above that a small number of elite girls schools also have astronomical fees.

@Sashamia they have better sports facilities because they have loads of money and better grounds. Lots of girls schools in towns and cities (london particularly) were set up basically in big houses in the late 19th century. Where there is lots of space and high fees girls schools do tend to have good sports facilities. One of the reason parents might choose a girls' school is that the stereotyping of sport "not being for girls" doesn't tend to exist and most do a huge amount to put on extensive team sport as well as alternative PE options as they get older for those not really interested in competitive sport.

Sashamia I find it very sad if we take it as read that girls will drop out earlier - its up to parents and schools to find solutions not just accept it as a fact.
I suspect its true - most girls schools seem to have smaller grounds and are newer and hence have lower maintenance and are less prestigious with a few notable exceptions.

The facilities at Whitgift and Trinity are far superior to Old Palace, that’ll be why. Old Palace has zero green space/playing fields and you need to walk up a residential street to get to the netball courts

[quote Treeblossoms]@Sashamia is it natural or is it environmental?[/quote]
I think it's natural that girls tend to shy away from sports when they start periods. Even in girls schools when body awareness isn't as intense as in mixed schools, girls find other interest outside sports. True society and parents can encourage more, but naturally there are more boys (and men) playing sports than the opposite sex.

Old Palace has green space in South Croydon that it uses (where the Junior School is located).

@MrPickles73

Sashamia I find it very sad if we take it as read that girls will drop out earlier - its up to parents and schools to find solutions not just accept it as a fact. I suspect its true - most girls schools seem to have smaller grounds and are newer and hence have lower maintenance and are less prestigious with a few notable exceptions.

It's a sad fact that women play less sports than men. We mothers have not been a good role model for our daughters. The boys schools have alumni using sport facilities too, thereby contributing further to the schools resources.

Historically it has to do with the fact Boys schools have had 100 of years advantage over their Girls equivalent and during that time period they have managed to build up an amazing set of ultra wealthy and influential alumni who donate generously to these schools. This helps to maintain their prestige and brand name.

Currently I think it's a combination of brand name and the quality of all round facilities they are able to offer. The better the facility on offer, the higher the fees(mostly)hence why you see some schools and you wonder how they are able to get away with charging such exorbitant fees.

@Sashamia this isn't really what the thread is about but whilst it's true in the UK overall than men participate in sport more than women (this includes golf and cycling which I'm not sure mumsnet thinks is a good thing anyway), I suspect if you just took the alumni of all girls private schools there would be no discrepancy. Obviously I have absolutely no way of proving this other than to say that rates of participation in sport by teenage girls at all the independent schools I have experienced have been very high.

It's simply not true to suggest girls schools don't have sports facilities because girls don't care about sport. Many with lots of money and extensive grounds do. Others in more urban settings often have less facilities or sports grounds off site because they were founded in the 19th century as supposed to the 14th/15th/16th and there was less space. also it wasn't thought appropriate at the time for girls to play sport. Later, when this changed schools often bought or rented sports grounds off site because they couldn't just miraculously add space for hockey pitches.

The education system is a product of our social history like any other feature of society and to blame unsporty mothers (I still participate in team sport despite my lack of talent) for this as well as everything else they get lumbered with just isn't really fair.

There is no comparison between the facilities of Old Palace - tiny site and they can't do anything with it as its a Grade 1 listed building. The extra curriculars really don't compare either - Whitgift can afford to put on big drama productions, Old Palace hasn't the budget (or a performing venue to put them on). Rumour has it that the Whitgift foundation provided about £100,000pa for musical performance with 70K going to Whitgift, £20k to Trinity and £10K to Old Palace. That 7:1 ratio on what OP and Whitgift get feels about right across the board.

Traditionally, parents would pay more by far for boys’ education. Boys schools and those that were boys but went mixed often cost more.

I think it’s simple demand and supply in most cases and what the market will bear. Schools will charge what they can get away with. They carefully look at the local competition of similar schools and price accordingly so they aren’t priced out of the market.

Lots of girls schools have closed or merged in recent years. There were too many to meet demand. That suggests lower prices in itself. It has often been the boys schools that became co-Ed, firstly taking girls in the 6th form and then throughout.

It would be j tweeting to know if as many girls as boys are independently educated. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a small difference even today.

I think it’s demand and supply and that historic factors still play a bigger role than people might think. It absolutely isn’t that fees are directly related to costs and lower costs will mean lower fees.

I think girls schools in general are less profitable.

Of course there are some big name old girls’ schools too....but most people will struggle to name as many big name girls’ schools compared to boys.

The sad thing is that I can’t see any of this changing any time soon. It’s really no wonder women don’t do as well in the workplace as men, if, in many cases, they’re getting less investment all the way through. As we all know, doing well in the workplace is less about academics and more about confidence and believing all yourself, qualities that are boosted by activities like drama and sport.

So if you lived in Croydon or nearby and were sending a boy to Whitgift, where would you send a girl for an equivalent experience? Or is it not really possible without going for boarding (which isn’t something I’d consider)?

In that area I’d say it’s partly demand. There seem to be many more girls’ day options than boys.

Well the boys I know at Whitgift have sisters at Wimbledon High, Putney High, Jags, Emanuel, G&L etc. All over really. But none of them live near Croydon. Boys come from all over London so parents aren’t just considering girls schools in Croydon. All the girls schools I’ve mentioned have similar fees to Whitgift and generally outperform them in the League Tables.