Going from private to state in YR9 - reason to be picked on?

[thesunday]

The plan is to let our son join the local inner city state school for YR9.

Now someone I spoke to mentioned that my son will 'probably be picked on because he comes from a private school'. And that we're better off letting him join the local school in YR7.

This had never occurred to me as we live in central London and everything seems transient and I assumed kids don't pay attention to this type of thing?

WWYD? Your feedback/opinions/experiences are very welcome.

@LolaSmiles
There's lots of great things about some state schools, but sometimes they get romanticised on here when the debate is private/state

Ditto the other way round. Having been bullied and sexually harassed myself at a very top school and more recently had a niece managed out of a prep and another niece develop extreme anorexia at a very academic girls senior school, I think that the romanticising of fee paying schools on here and in glossy marketing builds up a false impression of that sector.
So - There are lots of great things about fee paying schools, but in no way does paying a fee for something mean that very things that are intrinsic to human nature are ironed out.
And it also doesn't mean that a child that has spent a few years at a prep can't happily transition to a comp and retain a hard working ethic, play a good standard of sport, play in an orchestra and make good friends.

At the end of the day, a child's attitude is primarily formed at home by primary caregivers, and a well supported child will do well anywhere - even a fee paying school rife with racism, sexual harassment and bullying!!!

Oohhhbetty
Yes, I'd agree with you. People with strong feelings on either side can easily gloss over the flaws in each sector.

Why year 9? Is that the standard year to move up from prep school in the private sector?

In the state system year 7 is the first year of secondary school. That is the transition year. Not sure how easy it would be to get a place in year 9. Also, most friendship groups would be quite settled by then, making settling in more of a challenge.

Also, at the state secondary school two of my three DDs went to options for GCSE were chosen in year 8 and they began the courses in year 9.

All things to consider.

Moving from state to private at the start of year 9 does happen. Usually it's kids who fail the entrance exams of the private schools they're aiming for - I'd imagine the OP's son is currently Y6 and his prep school are cautioning that this is a possibility for him. If you live somewhere with limited private schools within range or have a not very academic child is happens quite a bit. It's in the prep school's interest to hold onto them into end of Y8 of course, so they may be inclined to underplay the challenges of moving into state schools at the start of Y9. This certainly happened with one of my DSC where the prep school was talking about state school backups as if that was just fine, but knowing the state schools in question I was pointing out to DH that they were usually over subscribed, have no system for reserving Y9 places, and it would be a very different experience from going in to a private school that is designed around a Y9 intake. (We took the gamble and DSC did pass the private school entrance exam in the end, but I know of others who didn't, and some at least did struggle with the transition to state)

Yes Oohhhbetty, that Kate Clanchy book is brillIant and should be read by everyone!

Thanks so much for all your replies. They’re very helpful and you all speak a lot of sense. Here’s my detailed response

@MarshaBradyo He’s in YR6 and yes, I’d like him to be part of the friendship groups from the start

@GolfForBrains the benefit is to have 2 more years of small class size and teaching that we know is excellent, great facilities, there’s no unknown factor plus he has friends there. And yes, I get that it might be hard to get into the state school of our choice and yes, he may have to transfer mid YR8 for that which sucks. Also more hanging round with the uncertainty. This is spot on

@clary yes, I already agree too. Moving in YR7 makes a lot of sense. And I think the curriculum argument you make is very important actually. Time to get into all the new subjects.

@RedGoldAndGreene Unless he mentions the old school by name regularly or something I doubt it will be a problem you're making me laugh!

@RandomUsernameHere Thanks for checking this with your kids. I appreciate it. Luckily though, my son isn’t very posh.

@Clymene Thank you, yes settling in is so important and you also mention the subjects and exams, so glad I asked this question on here actually

@Dontjudgeme101 I’m sorry to hear this about your husband. It’s so sad when someone gets bullied and I’m sure though it made him a stronger person. Yes, a good set of friends is what I’m hoping for for my son

@Oohhhbetty Why would they bully him… I don’t know, because they perceive him as different? And yes, I’d say he is friendly and nice but sadly that isn’t an insurance against bullying? Ohhhh wait, just read your second post now and am taking that back. You actually know a lot about teens and I do remember you from the thread about the recent scandal at DC (and everywhere else, state and private!) I don’t have teens yet and cannot comment on the stuff you’v written but I like it and will keep it in mind. Thank you for the book recommendation too.

@ittakes2 I don't think kids ask each other what school they went to before that’s what I think too! And I guess I’ve written above why we wanted him to stay on in the prep.

@worriedatthemoment That’s right. The reason to stay on is probably not that great

@Firefliess Thank you. I’m going to print out your answer I think. That’s it. He’s changing at YR7 Luckily he plays football

@Cannotgarden had to google that word! I think he’s down to earth, and I’ll remind him also. So sorry to hear what happened to your friend.

@LarryUnderwood Very wise what you say. Thank you! LOL acceptable weirdness.

@balloonsandboobies I guess I wrote above why we wanted him to stay on. I have to admit to leave in what we think is a “bubble” for a bit longer…

@PresentingPercy Yeah, we don’t know if there will be a place…. It’s a big gamble

@SE13Mummy Thank you for summing this up so well.. exactly what we don’t want to happen your DS's final term in his prep school won't be spent getting excited about the senior school he's going to, having visit days etc. but wondering which school he'll be allocated a place at in the July Also the curriculum problems you mention make full sense

Thanks @MrsElijahMikaelson1 Yes, I hadn’t thought ahead with the curriculum choices and GCSEs and so on. Makes absolute sense

@2021Vision Wow yes, I see this now too. We’ll just have to embrace the change this year and not postpone it

@Pupster21 thank you! Yes, I’d hope for him to make some real friends.

@LolaSmiles Thanks for the heads-up with the “Miss” and “Sir” So how do you address the teacher at state school? I’ll also keep an eye on the middling

@Topseyt Thank you, yes. YR9 is still a time where mostly boys change into secondary. It’s slowly being phased out though

@Firefliess Thank you. You’ve just described our situation and I’m so happy for you and your son that it all worked out. Massive Congratulations are in order. My son has just been through the 11+ and I cannot see him doing this again for the 13+, there’s a few boys like that in his position and it’s sad. I feel strongly that he shouldn’t be pushed to study for another 2 years so that he has a tiny chance to get a 13+ place. Did you have a back up for your son?

Thanks for the heads-up with the “Miss” and “Sir” blush So how do you address the teacher at state school? I’ll also keep an eye on the middling
Miss and Sir is generally fine at state school, but my friend got into trouble for using it at a private school. They only accepted Mrs Surname or Mr Surname. It could have been a quirk of her school, but overall she noticed a difference in culture.

so op do you have a state school place for him? In other words did you apply last autumn?

Teachers in state schools are Sir or Miss (even if actually Mrs).

Miss and Sir is generally fine at state school, but my friend got into trouble for using it at a private school. ohhh I see... funnily Miss/Sir is what the kids at our prep school say too. What a minefield!

Yes, we have a place!

all good! 😀😀

place is sorted. let's pack the popcorn away

@clary

@Firefliess

Moving from state to private at the start of year 9 does happen. Usually it's kids who fail the entrance exams of the private schools they're aiming for - I'd imagine the OP's son is currently Y6 and his prep school are cautioning that this is a possibility for him. If you live somewhere with limited private schools within range or have a not very academic child is happens quite a bit. It's in the prep school's interest to hold onto them into end of Y8 of course, so they may be inclined to underplay the challenges of moving into state schools at the start of Y9. This certainly happened with one of my DSC where the prep school was talking about state school backups as if that was just fine, but knowing the state schools in question I was pointing out to DH that they were usually over subscribed, have no system for reserving Y9 places, and it would be a very different experience from going in to a private school that is designed around a Y9 intake. (We took the gamble and DSC did pass the private school entrance exam in the end, but I know of others who didn't, and some at least did struggle with the transition to state)

Interesting we’re not doing 13+ but just did 11+

Op I think the biggest issue is getting a state place in yr9 - maybe call the schools and see how likely it is. There may be a waiting list and it’s very difficult hard to know.

Second is friendships more than bullying imo. The latter could happen but really state London schools are a wide mix of accents and backgrounds, but by year 9 strong friendships are forming imo

We’ve moved between sectors and schools previously for a primary child with not much issue (bar getting second choice as first was full but it turned out fine) but with a teen now I notice how important friends are, and being allowed to maintain those.

Meant to say interesting post to Firefliss I hadn’t thought of that angle

X post!

Do you mean in state?

I agree with the majority of posters. A London state school in year 7 will have kids coming from many, many schools, all needing to make new friends. They may not even ask each other's previous schools as they won't necessarily have heard of them! By contrast, a new boy arriving from any other school, let alone a private one, in Year 9, is likely to be asked. Your DS won't necessarily get bullied but he might struggle to break into established friendship groups unless he is quite a confident and charismatic individual - it's not cliquiness, it's just human nature - teenagers like to stick to what they know and have quite rigid ideas about who is a 'friend' and who is someone you like just fine and don't have any beef with but wouldn't arrange to see socially. Some friends were commenting the other day that at our kids' comp, 4 girls have joined in year 9 from nearby prep schools and they have ended up banding up as a friendship group - they struggled a bit to make new friends and this may be because they are culturally 'different' because of their previous school experiences or it may just be that friendship groups had already been formed. I would get the full benefit of what the state school has to offer and start your DS there in year 7.

I am interested to understand why your moving to state at yr9 after spending a lot of money for a prep school?

Your DC will find he is ahead of those in state as preps are at least a year ahead, so your DC may struggle settling into the school . Extra curricular will not be a priority so he may find that a struggle.

Anyway I was just intrigued as to your reasoning?

This isn’t necessarily true rogueone - my niece has moved into state at Y7 and is in middle to lower sets. Private schools don’t turn everyone into academic high flyers.

@rogueone
You can’t make that sort of throw away comment about extra curricular without knowing which school - what awful stereotyping.
Our comp puts a huge emphasis on extra curricular - DofE, CCF, a ton of sports, robotics, programming, art club, design clubs, debating, chamber orchestra (invite only) 2 more orchestras, dance, drama (big production each year) musical drama (production each year), I could go on.

Really mybonnieliesovertheocean2, granted I’m not in London but our large comp offers similar extra curriculars.

I actually considered doing this with DS1 - looking back I can't believe I was being so stupid. He started state secondary in Y7 and it was fine. If he's started in Y9 I think he would have struggled to make friends as friendship groups had already been formed.

Any kid joining in Y9 is going be a curiosity and if he's been to a prep school it is going to be tougher to fit in.

I would start him in Y7 or stay at independent until the end of Y11.

@rogueone the extra-curricular at my kids' comp is 5 times better than at the small private school I teach in. And as for prep school kids being ahead - also not always true. Simply a question of ability. A very bright child, perhaps, but sometimes the sheer scale of a big comp means there is more room for setting (so 7 sets in year group 'half' as opposed to maybe 3) and the very top sets absolutely fly. I think the idea of prep school kids being 'ahead' academically is one put about by prep schools to dissuade parents from moving their kids at the end of year 6 - it is not usually borne out by evidence.
Acquaintances of ours had a very bright, quirky son at a local prep school. They looked at local independent day schools but decided their DS wouldn't fit in as he would rather talk about politics than play rugby, would argue against all the pomp and ceremony, still couldn't tie his own tie etc. We suggested they look at state but they insisted he would be too far ahead of his peers. So he ended up in a very small private school for years 9-11 with a reputation for picking up kids who have failed to thrive anywhere else. Poor kid was miserable because there was nobody like him to talk to. The irony is the top sets in my kids' comp in a small university city are absolutely stuffed with fiercely intelligent boys doing additional maths and spending lunchtimes playing chess or building computers. This child would have fitted right in! But parents believed the propaganda they were fed. He's now at very academic state 6th form, loving the work but lonely again because of Covid limiting his ability to make new friends, and not having any established friendship groups, which he would have had if he had moved seamlessly over from state comp to state 6th form with the entire top set...

We had a state school back up for DSC1 who was actually very academic so it wasn't ever likely that she'd fail to get into the private school of choice. With her younger brother, DH initially proposed the same state school back up until I pointed out the difficulties in getting in and settling at a non standard time (DH, being familiar only with private schools, hadn't thought about the issues around mid year applications for over subscribed state schools and had assumed you could always get into your catchment school, which I had to explain to him you can't!) We eventually looked further afield and found a less selective privi one about 40 minutes drive away that ran a free bus service he could have caught. But in fact be got into the same one as his sister.

Having DSC and DC at both private and state schools I can see some differences and have seen kids move in both directions. I do think that Y8 in the private sector is really heavily geared around entrance exams and preparation for moving up to private 13-18 schools. Being pressured by taking entrance exams, failing them, spending the rest of the year with classmates all excited about their future plans while you have to wait until July before a place can be confirmed, then moving off where noone else is going wouldn't be the greatest experience. I've also found some alarming negative views of local state schools prevalent among a lot of private school kids - full of "chavs" who don't want to learn, full of kids not bright enough to get into the more desirable schools, etc. It might be hard to shield your DS from picking up some of that negativity during his Y7/8 experience.

So I'd either look around for a less selective private school backup, or move him at the start of Y7.

thank you @Biscuitsneeded. You describe the impression I have of the fall-back private schools vs state schools! Hope the student is ok now and has found great friends.

Thanks @CrazyHorse what swung your decision when you were in this situation?

@rogueone Staying in prep school from YR7 to YR9 is money well spent if the child is highly academic and driven to tackle yet another exam.

And to answer this fully, I want to ask: what’s the goal of private education?

Where we’re standing the goal of private education is getting a place at a top uni at the end of the day.

Our DC didn’t secure a place at the top London Selectives. Those schools are worth spending money on as they'll challenge the very smart kids to excel and hopefully get into Oxbridge or similar.

But what about the more academically normal kids like my son? Sending those to a posh school won’t get them into the Russel Group, only work ethic and brains will, it’s obvious really.

As of now, we’re left looking at 3rd tier private schools (apologies if that offends). We’re debating whether the more ‘nurturing’ secondary schools are worth it or whether our pretty smart son might thrive at a state school? I think he will.

So that’s the one bit.

We also feel that DC now has to pick up part of the responsibility of what he’ll do with his life. He lacks maturity and hasn’t taken the 11+ a 100 percent seriously, he hasn't fully deserved his space at a top school, which is entirely fine, we’re still very proud of him. But we feel the dice has been rolled and another path has opened. And that is the local state school. Trying to keep him at private at all costs isn't what we feel is right. Especially, since 13+ spaces at the schools we have in mind are rather limited in London, we feel it’s not fair to put him through this process again, it wouldn’t be good for his self-esteem.

Finally, someone said private is better for the kids’ confidence. Well, I know that my son would feel crushed being forever in the lower sets at a school with 98% smarter kids. Or of not making another big exam (the 13+). I think he’ll develop more confidence at a state school, and he wouldn’t feel like we just paid his way into a cushy life.

Why else do parents send their kids to private school? To have the right accent and polished manners. To have a great network. To access naicer friendship groups, but will he be sheltered from vile behaviour? And yes, the enrichment might be better at private schools, but it always depends which schools you compare. Our local state has great club options they’re similar to what @Oohhhbetty describes, which is fine by me

We want to make sure our children are happy. And this is possible at any school. Luckily the rest of his life has an influence on that too.

That’s our reasoning. You sound like you have an opinion too, what’s your take on this @rogueone? I'm all ears, it's my favourite subject