French or Latin, second GCSE language

[ColouringPencils]

DD is planning to take German GCSE and has to choose between French or Latin. She really likes both and it's quite likely she'll do a language at A-level. Are there advantages to either subject? Obviously French is more useful in day to day life. The Latin class size will be smaller, which I think she would like. She also enioys Maths, English, Art. Not that interested in History so unlikely to use Latin there. Is there anything else to consider to help choose between the two?

German is a great option!!! Universities are falling over themselves to get German students. German and French is the way to go for MFL students. It’s even less competitive to get into Oxbridge!

Latin is required for next to nothing. It’s fun to do but no jobs require it - except Latin teachers. Certainly not lawyers or doctors!

That's good to hear @PresentingPercy, as German is the only one she's definite about!

yh more and more schools teach Spanish, people want it because they go on holiday there.

I remember a student in yr 7 saying "why do I have to learn German miss? I'm never going to go to Germany!"

I would definitely say do German, it's the best. It's great that she still has the chance to do it. A levels in German and French more useful than German and Latin. If my degree had been German and French (instead of German and stupid philosophy) my life would have been different and it would have been a lot easier to find a teaching job.

My DH speaks German - it's great! Germany and Austria are so interesting, we have had so many great holidays there, masses of history, culture, music, art, philosophy.

German is massively underrated in the UK.

Studying any language is beneficial. They open up doors to other ways of thinking and other cultures and ways of living, as well as helping us to better understand our own language.

Studying any latinate/romance language can help with decoding Latin terminology, not just Latin itself.

I'd advise your daughter to follow what interests her most.

When I was at school the top two sets did French, Latin and either Greek or German. The two lower sets did French, Latin and Spanish ...

I don't know, OP. I do sometimes wish I'd had some guidance when (as a new pupil) I was offered the choice of Greek or German. I enjoyed German and being able to read the literature in the original (at least for a few years after school) was useful. But I really could have done with some Greek, (right up to today) and it's a bugger to learn when there's no exam to motivate one.

Seriously as a lwayer you do not need Latin - how ridiculous tahta someone is attempting to perpetuate that myth. On a couple of occasions there is a Latin phrase used. But as someone elsewider. said about botanical Latin you just learn those two phrase when you get to them and even then don't use them other than maybe in an exam (unless you are a pompous twat).

I would go for German and French if she is keen on languages as that leaves her A level and degree options

My ds loves German, did German and Latin at GCSE, German at A level last year and is going to uni in September to do a Modern Languages degree, one of his two languages being German. He is doing a bit of a niche ab initio language but if he decided to swap out of that, with Latin he isn't too worried about doing ab initio French or Italian or even going for one of those as a third language.

The GCSE Latin was half language and half civilization, following the Cambridge Latin Course and he really enjoyed the mix.

DS went to a very interesting careers fair at the German Embassy in Y13 before lockdown locked down, which gave him a great insight in to what you can do with German - because it has now become so rare in the UK, companies are crying out for it and there were some great German graduate schemes at all sorts of places from Deutsche Bank and Bloomberg to Aldi and Lidl. It was quite an eye opener.

Some universities do not do ab initio French. They tend to expect MFL grads to have it if they want to study it. Not everywhere of course.

German A level candidates have shrunk to a few thousand I think. There are jobs for linguists out there. Certainly not all translation either! DD is a barrister.

Also (ahem!) another argument in favour of German at A level is that if you do AQA, for the last two examined years certainly, the same mark in French and German would almost always get you a better grade in German.

So say you scored 300 out of 400, in French that would have been a B, in German an A. It is difficult to find a mark which would get the same grade (in 2019 275 was just a B in French, and 7 marks off an A in German, for example).

I asked AQA why this was and they told me that the German language paper (which makes up half the exam) was so much harder than the French one.

I loved learning French. The culture is so rich and varied. The cheese
I got my first job because I did French A' Level. No one ever got offered a job (apart from Latin teacher) because they did Latin.

I think learning about the cultures of other countries is important too. Don’t just look at MFLs as a vocational subject. They are far more than that. They give us greater understanding of the world.

Sorry I lost the thread for a few days.

@clary that's interesting about German marks being scored higher. I did French and German GCSE (obviously a long time ago) and I remember being told that German was harder. I don't know that I found it harder; there is more grammar to learn, but it follows a very logical pattern. Pronunciation also seemed pretty straightforward. But presumably if you need fewer marks for a grade, it is harder?

@mellicauli I also did French A-level and appreciate the cheese! None of my A-levels directly contributed to my job though, except the one I carried on to uni.

That's A level not GCSE tho, GCSE boundaries are more or less the same.

This makes me angry because half the marks at A level are self regulated - as in, the student sets the level in two essays and speaking. So only half the marks are for the "harder questions" yet the disparity is huge.

It's not really that German is harder as such. And maybe it will even out in future a level exams.

What do you mean, the student sets the level?

Yes sorry, my thought process was a little telescoped there.

So take speaking: the student has a choice of stimulus cards so they can choose in advance if they prefer a question from AS or A2, and revise those six topics; then it is down to their own skill and knowledge what phrases and structures they use. They also produce a presentation which obviously is set by themselves and made as complex or not as they choose. That's 30%.

Then 20% is an essay on a film and on a book; there are questions, but they are on a limited range of themes (and there is a choice). The student learns quotes, useful phases, opinions in target language about the various themes; so a strong student will do well and a weaker one will produce a less good essay, with less cogent arguments and not such accurate and complex language. But again, they are setting their level, rather than being faced with hard questions they cannot access.

AQA said the German questions were so much harder than French; but this could only apply to the reading, writing (ie translation and summary) and listening elements, which count for the other 50%.

It's harder to get a high grade in German than French. Because lots of schools have phased it out it has become elitist - often only top sets get offered it. They still need a range of grade 1-9.

I think French might be more useful in terms of jobs and careers.

French is far more useful! But I think she should choose what she prefers.

@converseandjeans

It's harder to get a high grade in German than French. Because lots of schools have phased it out it has become elitist - often only top sets get offered it. They still need a range of grade 1-9.

I think French might be more useful in terms of jobs and careers.

Not sure where you get that from; the grade boundaries for 2019 (the last one) for AQA (massively the most popular board) show French 203/181/159 for French 9/8/7 and 201/181/157 fir German 9/8/7. Identical exam set up, marked out of 240.

Also not true that only top sets are offered it. At my old school and at the DCs' school your MFL is decided on entry and could be German regardless of ability. I do agree it is being phased out tho 😭

I would go with whichever offers the best teacher and has a record of getting the higher grades. The teacher can make such a difference to success at this level. I say that as the mother of a DC who was told they were rubbish at the language they were studying. Teacher changed and my DC got top grades thereafter.

Latin GCSE is quite different from French or German because it has a significant literature element - she would study and prepare some original poetry and prose. This is a big advantage of Latin at this level if she has literary as well as language interests. I think German and Latin are a strong combination and leave more doors open than German and French, though the latter obviously makes sense if she would def like to do MFL at university. (Am a university lecturer.)

Just seen lots of negativity about German above. Crazy! Universities are fighting over the few remaining German students at the moment. Some departments will close / have closed because numbers taking a level have dropped a lot but there are still loads of options and it is less competitive to get in than other subjects. You mention maths -- if she is v good at maths I'd def choose Latin. Strong correlation in performance between those two subjects.

Thank you, I am enjoying this conversation as I like languages and also as there doesn't seem to be a consensus on the right thing to do!
@kalidasa yes she does like maths and I think one thing she enjoys about both maths and German is the logical structure and problem-solving element. I imagine Latin might be more similar in that respect than French? (I did French and German but not Latin, so am just guessing!). I also thought Latin might support options for uni, eg if she wanted to do German and Italian or Spanish, but it would obviously close the door on French... She does currently do both Italian and Spanish on Duolingo, so it's not mad to think she'd like to take one of them up at university.

I feel like I am thinking a long way ahead here - definitely further ahead than she is thinking! - but it is hard when it feels like not taking French is potentially closing off options. I suppose one of the things she might like to do with languages is teach and as @clary and others have said, you might find it hard to get a teaching position without French.

Basically I am concluding that French would be more practical generally, but Latin may be preferable to DD specifically.

Latin (like German) is a highly inflected language (lots of endings!), so it's similar in that respect. French is less so but is still more inflected than modern English. But the difference is not so much in the languages themselves but in how they are taught, especially at GCSE level. Because there's not the active / conversational element in Latin (usually), it is generally taught in a more grammar-focused way which suits people who enjoy patterns for their own sake. I love learning languages in general, have learnt quite a few and use several professionally (and French daily as my husband is French and the children bilingual) but I much preferred classical languages at GCSE level because the teaching was so different -- much more grammar focused, and also reading real literature which you don't in French / German until after GCSE.

I agree that if she might want to teach MFL than French or Spanish remain the obvious options, though it's also much easier to pick these up later on than it is to learn Latin, and Latin is a useful basis for learning any romance language. I have had no formal teaching in French beyond a GCSE which I took very early (at 14) but I have very decent French as an adult (about C1 level for speaking/reading, lower for writing as I have never really had to). In fact, we're moving to France in the summer!

Does her school offer any GCSE language options to those in the sixth form? Some schools do this and it can be a way to 'pick up' an additional language at that stage for those who are keen on languages at university.