Getting into private school after state primary

[GaryWilmotsWedding]

Posted this in primary education too. Would be great to hear any input from secondary stage.

Hello all. Not posted on Mumsnet for about 5 years although I am a longtime lurker. I can’t seem to find the right space to discuss this in RL so hoped I could get some input here.

I have 2 daughters both at our lovely state primary. They are both bright, engaged kids who, in general, try their best and enjoy school. We put no pressure on them to achieve any particular results (such as they are at this stage) but there is a heavy expectation to try hard and get involved. I don’t see that approach changing - it’s really important to us.

We have not considered private primary until this point. Or rather, had a brief think and rejected it. The primary they attend is a warm and happy place with people from lots of backgrounds, and that seemed all that mattered. Important to say that I t is not stretching them academically at all and a lot of time is spent dealing with the more disruptive kids in the class. We’ve started to consider secondary options for our eldest and it looks like private will be the way we go looking at the state options on offer. This has sent me into a bit of a tail spin and I can’t work out where I come down on it all! As a bit of background, my husband comes from a background where his family had very little money but has been successful in business and we can afford private primary, plus private secondary. I come from a more comfortable background but not so much that we could afford private education, however I got a scholarship at secondary so went private from that age. My OH has succeeded despite his education and although it generally goes against his outlook, since he had nothing growing up, he struggles not to feel expensive is better. He has had a peripatetic journey to where he is now and we have no designs on our kids in terms of what route we expect them to take. My experience is that I went to school with quite a homogenous group of people whose parents valued wealth and straight A grades above most things. I had a lot of opportunities that I didn’t really take up as my parents did not push me and I happily sort of bumbled along. I did well in my exams but nothing remarkable really.

I’m full of questions! If we intend to send them to private secondary and can afford it, why are we not sending them to private primary? My reasons for this are rambling and not very robust...I want them to mix with ‘normal’ people, I don’t want their school ‘career’ to start when they are so young, I don’t want them to think studying is the be all and end all, I don’t want them to think they belong to an elite group because their parents can afford it. I want them to engage in the things they feel passionately about and earn their way to their goals. I don’t like the idea that either the brightest or richest (or both) kids leave the state school population, creating a bigger divide. If I’m honest however I’m not principled enough not to perpetuate that issue myself. I don’t feel good about that, but that’s the honest truth.

• I am not keen at all on single sex education and most of the options for private primary are segregated. I can’t really articulate why other than I think it’s a bit weird?! Why would you segregate them? What sort of message does that send and how does it help prepare them for life after school? I think it’s pretty normal to be obsessed with boyfriends etc at school and spend ages faffing about with your look before school wink I want them to have relationships and learn how it all works. My OH gets where I am coming from on this but equally I think as a father to two girls finds some comfort in the fact boys would be less of a factor.
• I am fearful they won’t get in at secondary level and we will SO regret not putting them in earlier. I know it sounds wanky but we can afford it and it feels like everyone just thinks it’s a no-brainier. If you’ve got the money, why wouldn’t you? I don’t know how realistic it is they they can enter year 7 at Withington Girls, MHSG, Cheadle Hulme etc. If someone gave me a guarantee, I think this debate would be over and we’d keep them where they are.

So I’m asking, in a round about way, for some input in 3 areas:

• Experiences of private primary, particularly WGS if you know it well. How much pressure, are there lots of entitled types milling around (really fearful of this factor as it was my experience). My eldest is a kind and gentle soul and I don’t want her to feel pressure every day.
• likelihood of getting into a WGS or Cheadle Hulme from a state primary, making the assumption we would prepare them well for the exams. If anyone knows actual number that would be so helpful.
• experiences of single sex education - your children or you. I am not the type of female who has had lots of male friends but as I’ve got older I’ve come to realise mixed education was formative and important to me, especially in the job I had later.

Such a ramble, which reflects my conflicting thoughts I think. Any input would be really appreciated. TIA

OK, a few thoughts as I have been in a very similar situation (though nowhere near you geographically). I have two DC who went to a standard state primary and are now at private secondary. DH and I have different backgrounds - he was privately educated, I was state. Neither of us was initially inclined to use private education at all - but the DC qualified for a partial bursary at a superb secondary school, and we decided to opt for that path in the end after huge deliberation and soul searching.

In our case, coed was a major reason in favour of private rather than against (our best state options are SS, while the private is coed). We always wanted the DC to go coed, so that was a big push factor. Our biggest concern about the private sector was the lack of social diversity - and for that reason we were adamant that we weren't going to use a private primary, even though the DC were not particularly stretched in primary (and there were lots of behavioural issues, esp in one class).

If I'm honest, the 'social bubble' thing is never going to be something that I'm entirely at peace with - but in the end, the sheer quality and inspiration of the education that the DC receive outweighed those reservations (like you, I am quite willing to admit that). We did also make sure to choose a school that offers a lot of bursaries and does, as far as we have seen, put its money where its mouth is in terms of social responsibility. However, I am the first to acknowledge that that doesn't just make everything 'ok' and take away the inequalities in the system. I am still very aware every day just how lucky my DC are to be where they are, and I make sure they understand that as well - as does the school.

In terms of getting into a school, it would be silly of me to say 'your DC will be fine' when I have no knowledge of the schools involved. All I can say is that mine did get into a very academically selective school from a state primary, with only preparation at home. I know that the school they are at, like many other independents, looks favourably on state school applicants because they want to have that mix of state and prep school kids. Personally I would speak to the admissions staff in the schools you're considering and ask them to talk to you about their attitude and approach towards state applicants. If you don't get an extremely welcoming and encouraging response then I would discount the school to be honest, given your situation and your genuine reservations about going private in the first place.

In short, we have never regretted our choice to send the DC to a private secondary, because the education they get there is exceptionally good. Neither have we ever regretted our choice to keep them in state primary - in fact, I wouldn't have had it any other way.

My DD1 went to state primary and then on to a boarding school. She passed for the local grammar school with 1 mark off full marks (Bucks).

I think the main thing is - you and DC really have to want this school/education. It is all very well having reservations and doubts about privilege, but, bluntly, you are buying it. So I'm afraid you have to own it. You should not make Dc feel they owe you anything or that they are soooo lucky. Independent school becomes their normal life and it is one you have chosen for them. So do not keep on about it.

We were not going to get a bursery so what the school did regardong them was immaterial. In fact they do offer bursaries. But I would never make that my reason for choosing a school. That just sounds like you want to feel better about choosing it. Poor people can go there too! How wonderful. Youy should choose a school based on what suits your DC. Not other people's.

DD passed the entrance examsfor her school. She did not look back. It was smaller. Everyone knew her. She got opportunities and she grabbed them. She has done very well and loves her career. She is doing better, financially than any of her friends at the primary school who went to the grammar she would have gone to. However we did not expect that. We did not pay for that. We wanted her to have a broad education. We wanted her interests to flourish. We knew she was confident but she flourished in a school where that was appfreciated. We thought she was just as good as anyone with more money, or indeed less money. We wanted her to be happy and have friends.

So yes. Go to a private school and enjoy it.

@PresentingPercy your last few lines are so lovely. And exactly what our DD is getting at our local comp. We are blessed indeed.

Hmm, I still disagree with you to an extent. Yes, I agree you have to own your choices, and I certainly don't want to make my kids feel guilty about their education. But I do want them to appreciate how lucky they are - not just to go to the school they do, but also to live in a nice house and eat nice food and have a happy healthy family and live a pretty charmed life in all sorts of ways. I think people forget those privileges at their peril. As to bursaries, I think the degree of commitment to widening school access can be indicative of a school's broader culture. Since becoming a private school parent I have had my eyes opened to just how different schools can be in this regard - for example in their attitude towards charging parents for extras, or the extent to which pupils and parents find it important to keep up with the Joneses. (Incidentally, this is not just a private school thing - state schools can vary significantly in this way as well.) In our case, the bursary scheme was a very relevant factor for our DC (because there's no way we could afford the school fees otherwise), but I also think that offering a substantial number of bursaries and being very open about directing a sizeable amount of resource towards supporting less affluent families and other charitable activities not only makes an actual difference to the make up of the school community (because plenty of kids are not on high incomes and they don't all have the latest iPhones and go on the ski trip), but it also has an impact on the type of fee-paying family the school attracts. I think I rather naively assumed that everyone would welcome this sort of approach, until I had a perfectly genuine conversation with another parent who decided against applying to the same school because 'It's not nearly glossy enough - I don't want my child wasting any school time helping the fucking poor, I want them to be in a school that will get them into a better corporate job'. That is not the kind of parent I want to be sat next to at a school function, and if the school's approach to bursaries and charitable work deters that sort of family from applying, then so much the better.

Just a short warning from me; check the school's policy on drug mis-use. Do they follow up or do they sweep under the carpet to please their wealthy parents?

And please don't be naive about the levels (possibly more than in state schools) of drug taking occurring.

7% of DC attend private schools. There is not more drug taking in private schools. Why are you so worried about that? What about boozing? What about sexual behaviour with the boys? There are so many “what ifs”.

I never looked at bursaries and what the school did. I didn’t choose a school based in its generosity. I did, however, pay for bursaries through fees. No problem with that at all. Plenty of very rich people used the schools. Plenty of bursaries handed out. I wouldn’t let that persuade me about a school unless I needed one. We chose on a much wider band of ideals.

It tends to be a certain type of person who wants a “glossy” school.

My DDs know they had all the opportunities their schools could give them. They don’t have to thank me every 5 mins. They are comfortable with who they are and what they do. They care about others and DD1 very much is involved with people less fortunate than herself. Just because you don’t keep banging on about how grateful a child should be, it doesn’t make the child any less decent. We don’t have to moralise all the time. If you don’t like other people, so be it. We all find our friends and people like ourselves. Whatever the school. If you don’t like people who pay for the bursaries, that’s your prerogative of course.

@PresentingPercy Do you know for sure there's not more drug taking at independent schools on a per head basis? That's not what I hear.

No, please please don't misunderstand me percy. I'm absolutely not saying I don't like people who pay full fees. Apart from anything else, I'm grateful to them for helping to make my DC's education possible. I'm simply saying I don't like people who see no merit in helping others (in whatever aspect of life). And that schools which put a lot of emphasis on bursaries, wider access and charitable support (not just in terms of bursaries but also in their wider approach and the things they encourage their students to get involved in) are perhaps more likely to attract families which share their values (who, for example, like you, are happy with a proportion of their fees going towards widening access). Nor do I think that children need to be constantly 'grateful' or moralised at, as long as they have a fundamental grasp of the fact that different people have different circumstances and opportunities, and that privilege is attended by responsibility.

Sorry OP, I feel I'm derailing the thread and it absolutely wasn't my intention. I agree with percy that choosing a school is about all sorts of considerations and ideals (and a broad education was, similarly, the summary of what we were wanting). I was merely suggesting that private schools are not all the same, and that some are much less glossy and wealth-worshipping than others, and that the approach to outreach and bursarial support can be one indication of that. I reiterate what I said before - talk to the schools, you can glean an awful lot by doing that. I'll shut up now .

@GaryWilmotsWedding how old are your daughters? I think lots of people choose state for primary and private for secondary. You can get a tutor in Y5 to prepare them for the private school entrance exams depending on which school you choose. If you're happy with your primary, why move? Even if you can afford private at this stage, you could equally save the money for your children at a later date - in uni or a flat deposit?

Lots of people are very pro single sex education for girls aged 11-16 particularly. The advantages are no pressure from boys, freedom to not worry as much about your looks, ability to do any subject without worrying that is a "boys" subject, confidence to speak up, and I think girls statistically do better at single sex schools.
Pros for co-ed I would say are that is is what life is like, you have to learn to live in a mixed world at some stage, helps you normalise the opposite sex.
Personally I'm not sure. I think DD1 is going to have to choose between a local girls state school or a selective co-ed school and we're probably leaning towards the latter.

@PresentingPercy and @LizzieMacQueen - yes unfortunately for those of us with kids at private school the facts are that drug use and alcohol abuse is more prevalent at private school. See for instance this recent peer reviewed study by the University of York:

von Stumm, S., & Plomin, R. (2020). Does private education make nicer people? The influence of school type on social-emotional development. British Journal of Psychology, doi.org/10.1111/bjop.12462

It's not clear why that might be the case but you could imagine having more money and the stress of more competitive environments might play a role. Of course that will differ from school to school and person to person but overall the picture isn't great

My eldest has just 'run the gauntlet' and secured himself a place at a pretty selective secondary independent. He's currently at a state primary, which he loves.

A few thoughts on our experience:

A state primary (understandably) does not prepare children for these entrance exams. This isn't their role and in no way do they take it on. There were a few obvious gaps - such as maths content that hadn't been covered, no exposure to verbal/non verbal reasoning and of course, no copious amounts of exposure and practice of mock tests (which I assume is available in the majority of prep schools). They also refused to write a reference, but sent the school report from the previous year.

Saying that...if you're willing to support your child at home and fill in these gaps, as we did, then there is absolutely no reason why they can't succeed at securing a really great secondary place. I think state school pupils may have a slight advantage in terms of schools recognising the above points and therefore having some degree of leniency? I could be wrong though. I think a lot of schools are keen to have a good balance of state and prep school children and so again, as there are naturally more private school children applying, state school pupils may see themselves with a slight advantage.

Swings and roundabouts...and also just my opinion. Hope it helps x

You don’t say how old your girls are but isn’t withington prep from age seven onwards anyway? So you’ve got the best of both worlds - friendly non private infants and then prep for the juniors.

MHS prep runs from infants I believe.

I don’t know where you are but mixed peeps are moor allerton, ladybarn house, forest park, green bank and then loads Cheshire way.

(I have no first hand experience btw, but been starting to research as grandparents have said they will very generously pay fees but I’m not sure about it!)

I had the same experience as lonestar.

I’m glad dd had the no homework, very local, mixed sex experience at primary. I’m also glad she’s getting the academic stretch and breadth now at secondary, and that she’s in a single sex environment for the teenage years.

Can’t comment on your specific schools - but just check out how many kids go to your target seniors from state primaries - if it’s 50% or so you shouldn’t have a problem.

Check out also what the entrance exam is - is it something they can prep for, and if so do you need to hire a tutor? (I’m not suggesting you have masses of tutoring but an hour or two a week targeted at entrance exams can be sensible.)

If the schools in your area are competitive, make sure you put them in for a back up that you are sure they will get into but still offers a good education.

I’d say don’t get too hung up on single sex/co-Ed, it doesn’t make that much difference to most kids, the ex-pupils that feel it did just make a lot of noise. The main thing is go and see the schools and pick somewhere you and your DP and your daughter are all happy with. Always worth asking a head what child the school wouldn’t suit - because no school works for every kid, and it’s good to jolt them out of sales patter. Obviously look for confident kids and opportunities offered that build confidence - you are paying for that as well as good results - and it’s the confidence that will carry them through life. Don’t get too dazzled by the fancy swimming pool. Try and talk to a range of current parents.

If you live in an area of super competitive girls’ day schools, you may need to look at weekly boarding or flexi-boarding to get a safety school or for a co-Ed option. These work really well for many kids.

We did state primary, now just passed selective exam to secondary. We’ve also used a prep school for other dc.

The difference in terms of objectives is quite stark, however the outcome isn’t that marked. Ie state will not prep your child in any way, it’s not their remit. At a prep your fees are to pay for this.

We did past papers and online practise, others do more with outsourcing tutoring, but without this it still worked out well here. But we had a good state back up and didn’t feel it was make or break and many do tutor if in state. Some in private do too.

I don’t think there’s much in it. If you move them they’ll leave their friends but make new ones, and you’ll have the comfort that the fees you pay are to prep them for next stage.

Hi
We’re in a not dissimilar situation - could easily afford private school but choose to send our DC to state - primary and secondary. For lots of reasons but it definitely helps that the state schools available to us are excellent. We do spend quite a lot on extra curricular stuff outside school - sports clubs, music & drama lessons etc. but I’m confident the quality of teaching is as good or better than many private schools. I also like the fact that my DC mix with all different types of people (the school is not in a uniformly middle class area).
So it’s not necessarily a no brainer to send your kids private if you can afford it but I would say the quality of your state school option matters a lot.

Also I wouldn’t worry too much about single sex or mixed. I went to a single sex school myself and - although at the time I appreciated not having boys at school and being able to concentrate on studies without having to worry about my appearance etc - I then went on to study and work in a very male dominated environment and I didn’t feel that my school life had any impact on how I dealt with that. I’d say it has quite a marginal effect for most people

I have done a mixture of state/private and I would say private Prep probably isn't worth it. But if you do go for the state option you will need an excellent tutor. Withington & Manchester High are very academic, Cheadle Hulme used to be many years ago but I believe Parrs Wood gets better results now.
Ladybarn was an excellent school (my old school) but lots left a few years ago, due to the useless head at the time. I'm not sure what the current state of affairs is.

@tadger98 That was a fascinating study thank you. Any thoughts on the conclusion @PresentingPercy

Our study adds to a growing body of empirical evidence that questions the benefits of private over state education for children’s outcomes. We found that school type exerts minimal influence on children’s social–emotional development, in line with previous reports (Gibbons & Silva, 2011; Green et al., 2017; Jerrim & Sims, 2019). In those cases where we observed systematic differences in development between state and private schoolers, private education was often associated with worse individual level outcomes, such as higher peer victimisation, greater readiness to assume risk, and earlier alcohol consumption. Our findings are particularly relevant for parents who are considering private education for their children: Being privately educated is unlikely to translate into benefits for social–emotional development.

Private primary up to the age of 8 is pointless except if you want to buy a bubble of protection to ensure your child doesn't have to mix with poorer kids. In the first few years of education all children will learn at their own pace and outcomes are far more influenced by having engaged parents who model enthusiasm for education and learning, and who centre books and love of reading in family life, than by the school attended. You can have poor outcomes even with an excellent school if these things are lacking. You can have excellent outcomes even with a failing inadequate underfunded school if these things are present.

It does begin to change from Y5 when state schools will (often but not always) tend to start focusing on drilling all the kids towards the SATS and the brightest kids will (often but not always) not be stretched much as they are at the required standard already. Meanwhile their contemporaries at Private primaries are being drilled in verbal and nonverbal reasoning skills for the various entrance tests they will take, but will also often be benefiting from separate specialist subject teachers for maths, english, science and languages etc rather than having a single class teacher, and will be learning the introductory stages of these separate subjects in more depth than is covered in the state primary curriculum.

I have DC at private senior after state primary yR-y6 but with hindsight I wish we had switched at y5. It was clear by the end of y5 that y6 was going to be extremely dull but by then the target senior school had no vacancies in the right yeargroup. Apparently if we had applied for y5 we would have been likely to have got a place but never mind. In terms of preparation we didn't need formal tutoring but spent a couple of hours a week on various preparation work for about 3 months prior to the exams and that was enough.

@turth
I really don’t bother much with studies. Nor will the vast majority of parents who want a top class private school. Some people, for generations, have had a private education. They are not going to change. They already have the advantages in life so their DC automatically get it. They educated dc alongside people like them. Their dc don’t need socio-emotional development. At least not in the way you think! Maybe a few people who cannot afford it might think twice. Maybe people who use the cheap private schools might think twice. Others would never ever use a state school. It’s just the way it is. All the studies in the works won’t change that in real life.

The NHS and drugs charities believe county lines has greatly altered drug taking in young people. These are not pupils in private schools. You can point the finger at them regarding more money but when the nhs says 38% of young people have bern offered drugs, anyone that thinks they were all in private schools is in cloud cuckoo land. It’s all part of the class wars anyway. If you think a private school isn’t did you, don’t go. If you think your DC is an easily lead sheep then beware of any school! They will find drugs if they want them. Anyway, further reading attached.

A bit more.

@PresentingPercy glad you are not a lawyer as that doesn’t further your argument one bit, completely useless bit of data for the discussion we are having.

The trouble with studies is that they don't tell you very much about your individual child's experience, which is influenced by so many factors. We didn't send DS from state primary to independent secondary because he's 4% more likely to get an A* or 7% more likely to get into Oxbridge or 2% less likely to take coke. We sent him there because, frankly, every day is pretty bloody brilliant. He's taught by fantastic subject specialist teachers in reasonably-sized, co-ed, similar ability classes, almost entirely free from disruption and behaviour problems, he makes heavy use of excellent extra curricular facilities and clubs, and he gets to spend his day in a lovely environment of well-designed classrooms and beautiful open spaces. There are lots of other details I could add about subject choice and practicalities and school ethos and so on, but really that sums it up. Statistics and percentages are incredibly hard to unpick in any meaningful way for an individual child, and they played no part in our decision.

Thank you all. I see it’s not just me wrestling with this stuff! Tbh my concerns are more around emotional development/pressure and not interacting with a gender they will have to work and live alongside once out of school. With only a sister at home, I am concerned that boys/men will either be something to be totally avoided or so mysterious they seem far more interesting than they really are! I’ve enjoyed jovial, banter-y relationships with men all my life and have always felt very confident in my male relationships. when I imagine being at school with only the very cliquey girls at my school it makes me feel very sad for my daughters. The reality is the good private schools here are segregated and that’s that. I was absolutely not oxbridge material myself (grades ok but not in temperament or ambition) and I was seen as quite an oddity for not pursuing it. I later kind of revelled in this feeling but it was hard at the time. I still don’t know where I fit in, although I am very happy. The sort of families you are describing @PresentingPercy are so unlike either mine or my DH’s background - there is no set family route with this stuff and we are the first of both families to have the money for this. We are struggling with our identities a little and it is confusing. (Again, I am at pains to say I do recognise that it is a privilege to be asking these questions at all).
I accept that there may be some concerns around drug taking (my school wasn’t great) but we are involved and committed parents and I don’t personally feel that state or private will be the difference in the decisions they make regarding drugs or alcohol. Perhaps I am being naive.

I also like parenting and expect to be very involved - I have changed my work significantly so I can be there for them and help. I don’t know how much I kind of want to ‘give’ them to a high performing school to do the work?! I like them the way they are and I don’t want them being taught to be anything other than the lovely people I feel they already are, I just want them to have every opportunity to pursue their interests. It does feel it is a very bold choice to reject what would undoubtedly be a very good schooling on my somewhat confused reasoning.

For those whose children attended state primary and then went private, did they struggle to adapt beyond passing the exam? Did they fail to get into a school they and you were particularly keen on and do you therefore wish you’d done prep/private primary?