Getting into private school after state primary

[GaryWilmotsWedding]

Posted this in primary education too. Would be great to hear any input from secondary stage.

Hello all. Not posted on Mumsnet for about 5 years although I am a longtime lurker. I can’t seem to find the right space to discuss this in RL so hoped I could get some input here.

I have 2 daughters both at our lovely state primary. They are both bright, engaged kids who, in general, try their best and enjoy school. We put no pressure on them to achieve any particular results (such as they are at this stage) but there is a heavy expectation to try hard and get involved. I don’t see that approach changing - it’s really important to us.

We have not considered private primary until this point. Or rather, had a brief think and rejected it. The primary they attend is a warm and happy place with people from lots of backgrounds, and that seemed all that mattered. Important to say that I t is not stretching them academically at all and a lot of time is spent dealing with the more disruptive kids in the class. We’ve started to consider secondary options for our eldest and it looks like private will be the way we go looking at the state options on offer. This has sent me into a bit of a tail spin and I can’t work out where I come down on it all! As a bit of background, my husband comes from a background where his family had very little money but has been successful in business and we can afford private primary, plus private secondary. I come from a more comfortable background but not so much that we could afford private education, however I got a scholarship at secondary so went private from that age. My OH has succeeded despite his education and although it generally goes against his outlook, since he had nothing growing up, he struggles not to feel expensive is better. He has had a peripatetic journey to where he is now and we have no designs on our kids in terms of what route we expect them to take. My experience is that I went to school with quite a homogenous group of people whose parents valued wealth and straight A grades above most things. I had a lot of opportunities that I didn’t really take up as my parents did not push me and I happily sort of bumbled along. I did well in my exams but nothing remarkable really.

I’m full of questions! If we intend to send them to private secondary and can afford it, why are we not sending them to private primary? My reasons for this are rambling and not very robust...I want them to mix with ‘normal’ people, I don’t want their school ‘career’ to start when they are so young, I don’t want them to think studying is the be all and end all, I don’t want them to think they belong to an elite group because their parents can afford it. I want them to engage in the things they feel passionately about and earn their way to their goals. I don’t like the idea that either the brightest or richest (or both) kids leave the state school population, creating a bigger divide. If I’m honest however I’m not principled enough not to perpetuate that issue myself. I don’t feel good about that, but that’s the honest truth.

• I am not keen at all on single sex education and most of the options for private primary are segregated. I can’t really articulate why other than I think it’s a bit weird?! Why would you segregate them? What sort of message does that send and how does it help prepare them for life after school? I think it’s pretty normal to be obsessed with boyfriends etc at school and spend ages faffing about with your look before school wink I want them to have relationships and learn how it all works. My OH gets where I am coming from on this but equally I think as a father to two girls finds some comfort in the fact boys would be less of a factor.
• I am fearful they won’t get in at secondary level and we will SO regret not putting them in earlier. I know it sounds wanky but we can afford it and it feels like everyone just thinks it’s a no-brainier. If you’ve got the money, why wouldn’t you? I don’t know how realistic it is they they can enter year 7 at Withington Girls, MHSG, Cheadle Hulme etc. If someone gave me a guarantee, I think this debate would be over and we’d keep them where they are.

So I’m asking, in a round about way, for some input in 3 areas:

• Experiences of private primary, particularly WGS if you know it well. How much pressure, are there lots of entitled types milling around (really fearful of this factor as it was my experience). My eldest is a kind and gentle soul and I don’t want her to feel pressure every day.
• likelihood of getting into a WGS or Cheadle Hulme from a state primary, making the assumption we would prepare them well for the exams. If anyone knows actual number that would be so helpful.
• experiences of single sex education - your children or you. I am not the type of female who has had lots of male friends but as I’ve got older I’ve come to realise mixed education was formative and important to me, especially in the job I had later.

Such a ramble, which reflects my conflicting thoughts I think. Any input would be really appreciated. TIA

@GaryWilmotsWedding you sound like an utterly gorgeous Mum and therefore I suspect your children are going to thrive wherever you send them!

My daughter went to the local state primary, but moved to start year 5 at a co-ed through school. The state primary suited her perfectly until that age, but it was so tiny that I really felt she was outgrowing the school. We had always planned for her to go to the private through school for secondary but had no intention of moving her before until one day it just felt right. I’m so glad we did what we did. She has local friends to play with, and has lots of opportunities and facilities provided by the private school. All I have said to her is that I want her to take all of the opportunities she is offered and try her best (as i hope she would anywhere). The two things most important to me were being a co-ed school and not being a hot house.

My dd went from a failing primary school in a deprived area to the equivalent of WGS in our big city - single sex, highly selective. We did some prep for the grammar school exams in the summer of year 5 and then nothing. The independent school exam was just after Christmas in year 6; dd didn't even look at a past paper, but it didn't seem to matter. The exam was mainly Maths, comprehension and creative writing, which she did at primary anyway.

It was an enormous culture shock for her to move from a rough mixed primary to this secondary school. She enjoyed it and made lovely friends and did very well in her GCSEs. She had lots of lovely extra curricular opportunities and trips. It's one of those schools that wants to widen access and gives lots of bursaries (dd had one). However it was still rather an elite environment on the whole and we had a lot of discussions about 'normal' salary levels, holidays, lifestyles and how most of her peers were actually in the top 5% socio-economically.

Being a girls school, it did get very stressy and pressured in years 10 and 11. Not due to the school, but just because a load of highly able girls, many of whom have very pushy parents, creates quite a toxic environment at times. We had to try very hard to offset this at home. Dd moved in year 12 to a boys grammar which accepts girls in the sixth form. She's really enjoying it; the fact that boys make up perhaps 2/3 of the year means it's much more relaxed. Also, she feels people are more 'normal.'

I don't regret her secondary years at all, but we're glad she moved when she did. She never had any problems with single sex as she's got male friends from outside school - youth group, summer camps, church etc.

Oh, and the drug taking/drinking did seem to start quite young amongst a certain sub-set at her previous school. Although there were also lots who didn't drink for religious reasons and/or came from quite strict families.

OP you do sound lovely, and I think you are asking some very wise questions. When we chose the school we did, we definitely got a few raised eyebrows from other primary parents along the lines of 'you, there, really?'. I don't think DS has struggled to adapt, but it's certainly been a culture change - his class now is a mix of mainly affluent prep school kids, with a few primary kids at one 'end' of the social spectrum (including some on bursaries), and then perhaps a couple of super wealthy kids (often international boarders) and the very occasional foreign royal type at the other end. This is obviously very different to his primary class, although it's an affluent area so there was still plenty of wealth around there. I think how your child adapts to that depends on the school culture and on your child and their family. DS knows that lots of his classmates go on fancier holidays than him, but it doesn't bother him. He's not a very materialistic boy, and I genuinely don't think he's bothered that his house/car/phone/shoes are not remotely high end. I'm sure there must be 'sets' within the school that are more focused on those sorts of things, where he would never really fit in - but there would be in any school. In the end, kids are just kids - some are lovely, some are not. Some will judge people on their lifestyle - some won't. DS still sees friends from primary, and most of the people he encounters outside school are not from a private school background. I very much hope that he comes to feel he can fit in and hold his own wherever he ends up in life - just as I would never want him to stop being the grounded kid that he is, I equally wouldn't want him to feel that he doesn't 'belong' in the kind of environment that tends to be populated by people from wealthy backgrounds. I'm not expressing myself very well, but ultimately I would love for him to feel that he could end up teaching in a disadvantaged comp or being a high court judge, and not feel like either is a place he doesn't 'belong'.

That was basically my argument @hobsonjobson
I shouldn’t have got sucked in. Sadly I did and got the abuse so often dished out on MN when others are stuck on research outcomes that no one else cares about.

I don’t think parents take notice of “research” into drug use either. Or percentages getting to Oxbridge. What you do is choose the best school for your DC. “Best” can mean all sorts of things to parents and DC because they are all different. Stats played little part in our decisions either. Matching DC to the school did.

My Dds went to state primary. I was involved with my eldest ones class and knew them well. A third went to private schools. I kept in touch with them. My Dd got the best A Level grades of them all in a state comp. Not bragging because she was one of the top at primary school. If you ranked them at primary, they basically got what expected at A Level. Except a couple of girls crumbled under the pressure at private and a couple of girls/boys at state had parent divorces/bereavements that affected them.
The advantages of private school was that it was a much longer day which was useful for working parents and also it was good for contacts (eg. Work experience). If there’s a really bad troublemaker they’ll be kicked out. Seemed to have to be really bad to be expelled but in state it is near impossible!
State school advantages were that my children did more activities outside the school (looked better on UCAS forms and also gave them different experiences/friendships), they had school friends living close by and they have healthy savings accounts for a house deposit.
Drugs are prevalent in both types of schools. Weed at state. Ketamine seemed to be more private. Coke at both. The pupils know who the druggies are. In both types of school, pupils find ‘their crowd’.

As most people on here have said, go for the one that suits your child and your family best. The most important factors are that they are happy and you show them a positive school work ethic.

My dd went from a state primary to a private secondary. We are in London so the entrance exams are very competitive and to be honest - yes, you do have to do lots of preparation at home as the work done at a state primary will not prepare your child for an entrance exam.

For us the state primary was an obvious choice - local, good mix of children from different backgrounds, reasonably ok teaching.

For secondary we knew we would be looking at private because it was clear that the local secondaries that dd had any chance of getting a place at were not a good fit for her. She is at a girls secondary and it’s perfect for her - academic but not crazily pushy, no disruption in classes, no bullying, etc.

Can I just say - and I feel this is really important: it’s very hard to compare people’s experiences and choices because there is huge disparity between the state schools that are accessible to different people.

Out of interest, and apologies if this details slightly. But if you do go from state primary to private secondary, from what year do you need to start prepping them? The idea of having to tutor from year 2 or something makes me want to run away.

@backinthedhss I would say starting prep in January of Y5, so 12 months before the entrance exams, is typical and easily enough.

To try to answer the OPs question, we went from state primary to private selective independent in London. Now dc is in final year and, in my view, the academic outcome looks like not being any different from what she could have achieved at the local comp. Extracurricular offering has definitely been better, and no classroom disruption. It's a very personal decision and only you know what is right for you and your dc, given factors such as state school choices, the nature of your dc, your family values, financial considerations.

Agree absolutely about the length of time to prepare - we found a year about right, starting with general gap-filling and moving onto more specific prep nearer the time (depending on what kind of exams the schools do). But general reading makes a huge difference too, and it's never too early to start introducing lots of different books from lots of different genres and periods in order to help with vocabulary and comprehension. People often talk about the gaps in maths for state primary kids, I think because they're easier to define - but actually we found the difference in the level of expectation much greater in English.

@backinthedhss honestly, we did nothing, Dd is nowhere near a genius and her primary school was in special measures. I think you need to prepare if the school uses say non verbal reasoning papers as they won’t be familiar with them, but the school Dd went to only marked the reasoning paper in borderline cases. I personally didn’t want her to go there if she was borderline so I wasn’t going to tutor her in that to get her over the line.

When she came home from the exams she said the English and Maths papers were just like what she did at school. This is an independent school which was in the national top 10 last year so I’m sure other selective schools can’t be that different?

@backinthedhss

Out of interest, and apologies if this details slightly. But if you do go from state primary to private secondary, from what year do you need to start prepping them? The idea of having to tutor from year 2 or something makes me want to run away.

We did past papers and online for a month

A graduate marked about five papers we couldn’t get answers to

That was it, no tutoring beyond that and into what is known as a more selective school

I do wonder about comp v private though as we had a very good state option. I think he wouod have done well there too probably but extracurricular was a consideration

@backinthedhss

Out of interest, and apologies if this details slightly. But if you do go from state primary to private secondary, from what year do you need to start prepping them? The idea of having to tutor from year 2 or something makes me want to run away.

I think it depends on the child, and on the school. Some kids probably need a lot of extra work but tbh our decision was that if our DC would need a year of extra work to reach the required standard then maybe it wouldn't actually be the right school for them. Over-tutoring can just lead to a child not being able to keep up without intensive additional support. But the school we were aiming for has a policy of only putting in the entrance exams content which will have been studied up to Y5 in any state school, in order to be reasonably accessible, so given we knew DC would therefore be fine for actual knowledge, we were mainly just doing exam technique and learning the format of the Verbal and Non-verbal reasoning tests. 3 months was plenty.

Other schools might deliberately set a more difficult exam covering a more advanced curriculum though, so ask the schools that you are interested in for more detail of their expectations.

Lots of advice here so I'll just say our experience of the single sex vs coed.
Both my children went to a non selective private coed school (the school is for all years- nursery through sixth form) and is the only one in our area. The kids are from bursary to very wealthy with a number of wealthy boarders. But the vast majority are middle class, both parents in work, making the usual sacrifices to ensure the kids get a good education. Sadly the state schools, primary and secondary, are not particularly good, so if people can afford it, they tend to send their kids to the private school.
My son was very outgoing and gregarious boy, not academic. Being in a co ed school only benefitted him.
My daughter is an academic introvert. She is bright, but achieves because she works very hard. I think she would have gotten eaten up at the local state school.
However, in about year 8, when I asked her what would make her school better, she immediately said 'if there were no boys'. She was not in top sets at the time, and found the boys generally too loud, disruptive and annoying. Group work in particular she found hard to get noticed and felt she and another girl tended to do all the work while the boys mucked about. This did improve when she was moved to top sets, as she found the boys were more focused, but ultimately she said she wanted to go to school to learn, not have to deal with boys.
She will be going to a smaller all girls sixth form in London. Never having had to apply to a school, the process was unbelievably stressful and demanding. The school she settled on is very pro women, very active in the charity sector, the girls are expected to take classes in DIY, first aid, self defence, understanding budgeting and cooking and domestic arts, alongside A levels and EPQ. The school prepares them to be confident, productive members of society, and more immediately how to live independently.
She has always been at a coed school and has a brother. This has not helped her one iota in terms of dealing with them. While I would not (and obviously did not) want my kids to have a single sex education, what benefited my son has not benefited my daughter. If we lived near a choice of schools, I may have sent her single sex from the start of secondary.
So, what suits one child in terms of coed vs single sex may not suit another. I don't believe in forcing a child to be something they are not. My daughter will not suddenly 'come out of her shell'. She will have to learn to cope with society (for one thing she will be taking the underground to school every day), but I believe a smaller, less intimidating (to her) environment will give her the confidence to be heard.
By the way the reason my children never went to a state school is that where we lived in SW London at the time, my son did not get into the four nearest state schools due to distance. The one alloted was in the other side of the Borough and 'required improvement'. It was a no brainer decision then, and when I moved to our current area it was an obvious decision as well.