Tips - What to do if you aren't happy with your school place

[PatriciaHolm]

OK, so it's National Offer Day for Secondaries today so I thought it might be useful to do a quick summary post, primarily on what to do if you aren't happy, as I know it will come up a lot today....(FWIW, I sit on Appeals Panels, and also a Chair of Governors. There are several other panelists around too.) Hopefully this will be helpful.

What to do if you get a school you don't want?

1. Accept it. This is does not signal to the LA that you are happy, it just locks in a "last resort" option. It has NO impact on waiting lists - you get no preferential treatment on lists or at appeal if you turn the place down, nor are you negatively impacted if you have accepted a place.
If you turn it down, the LA no longer has an obligation to find you a place, so you will be dependent on waiting lists/appeals. If they don't come through, you could find yourself with no place in September. So ONLY turn it down if homeschool (or private) is definitely an option......

2.Get yourself onto Waiting lists for schools you do want. In some areas you are automatically put on lists for schools higher in your preferences that you don't get into, in some cases you need to ask, so check - your LA website, email, or login portal will probably tell you what to do. You can also add yourself to lists for schools you didn't apply for (some LAs limit the amount of lists you can be on though.)

3. Check there has been no mistake. If you are genuinely surprised and you think a mistake might have been made - wrong distance used, sibling link ignored etc - it's worth checking. Your decision letter/portal is likely to have the criteria you were assessed under for each school and, for example, the distance used in the case of distance criteria, so check all is well. If it doesn't, check with the LA. But be patient, lots of people will be calling/emailing today and tomorrow....

4. Think about appeals. You can appeal for any school you applied for and didn't get into. I won't go into depth here as each appeal is different, but essentially you need to show that the detriment to the school of taking another pupil is less than the detriment to your child of getting a place. If you decide to do this, post and ask for help! A number of us here are happy to do so.

If you are happy - great! Accept it, if you need to (some LAs will auto accept for you.) And be patient - most secondaries are a bit busy right now (!) so it may be a while before you hear from your chosen school re. induction etc.

Any questions, do ask. Sometimes it's easier for someone not emotionally involved to figure out the answer or find a detail.

@indie123

I am aware that offers need to be accepted or rejected by 15th march. Does anyone know how long after this waiting list usually begin to move ?

The deadline for accepting or rejecting offers varies from LA to LA. The waiting list should start moving as soon as someone rejects a place. However, some LAs work a little differently and wait until a set date before allocating places to the waiting list.

My son was offered his fifth preference and is gutted. Besides the fact that his friend will be going to this school, but it also offered what they called a 'maths scholarship,' but actually extra allocation for children who excel at maths. Unfortunately, unlike the sport and music scholarships, they are not part of the admissions process. He loves maths, and performs in the higher category in KS2 assessment. I don't know anywhere else in the area that has this,and he was quite excited.

After the usual looked after, SEN, sibling places, and sport/music scholarship, places are allocated by lottery. I would like to appeal, but I'm not sure what grounds I'd have - my location makes no difference, and most appeals I've read about seem to rest on practicalities like educational needs, or proximity to the school.

Unrelatedly, he's quite a reticent child, and when we told him, he said he wasn't surprised as 'good things don't happen to us' and we are 'cursed'. He's taken lockdown hard, I lost my mother last year (not covid), and his dad spent time in hospital recovering from Covid, which has been stressful, but I didn't realise he was feeling so negative. I hope I'm only projecting my own anxiety.

Is there anyone who has won an appeal for reasons other than location or SEN?

A lot of people bring up proximity to the school on appeal, but it is irrelevant. Appeal panels don't care how close you live to the school. It is not a reason for an appeal to succeed. No-one ever wins an appeal on location if the appeal panel is following the rules. Appeals are rarely won on SEN grounds - this only works if the parents can show that the appeal school has provision for SEN that is missing from the allocated school.

You've actually set out a good case for appealing already. Your son loves maths and is in the higher category in his KS2 assessment. This school offers extra activities for children who excel at maths. If he does not go to this school he will be disadvantaged as he won't be able to access these extra activities. That is exactly the kind of case appeal panels look for. It doesn't guarantee success but it is a great start. If you can find other things your preferred school offers that are particularly relevant to your son and are not available at the allocated school that would strengthen your case.

@prh47bridge

That's encouraging, though I'm still very much a pessimist. Are there people who advise on setting out your case? The school he wanted is massively oversubscribed, and he's currently 306 on their waiting list, so a place is unlikely to open up unless we try appealing, but the whole process is so daunting. I wish it wasn't such a popular school, but it is probably only able to offer what it does because it is extremely popular. Who knows?

I feel incredibly daunted, but on the plus side they are offering a zoom event where they 'demystify' the appeals process later in the month.

Thank you so much for replying - after what he said, I was feeling quite despondent, and your post made a real difference.

There are a number of experts on here - admission, PanelChair, PatriciaHolm and myself spring to mind, with apologies to anyone I've missed. We will be happy to help you set out your case. If you want private advice, I will be happy to respond to a PM. I believe the other experts will also respond if you PM them.

Thank you. I will DM you, if you don't mind.

@prh47bridge what you say about appeals rarely being won on grounds of SEN worries me. The main basis of our appeal is that our son's social development will be significantly disadvantaged if he goes to a school with no-one from his current school. He's has ASD and whilst any school should (hopefully) be able to support this, it will be detrimental to him to be split up from everyone he knows - particularly as he will be moving from a very small rural school. Do you think we stand a chance at all with this?

@Waitingfirgodot - What I meant is that appeal panels see a lot of parents appealing saying that their child should be given a place simply because they have SEN, without any further justification. That isn't a winning argument. However, if the argument is that the appeal school has specific provision for the child's particular type of SEN, that can be a winning argument. You are making the case that your son will be disadvantaged if he doesn't attend this school. If you can convince the appeal panel, you have a chance. It will help if you have letters from professionals to support your case.

@prh47bridge:

Please could i ask your advice around this?

"A lot of people bring up proximity to the school on appeal, but it is irrelevant. Appeal panels don't care how close you live to the school. It is not a reason for an appeal to succeed. No-one ever wins an appeal on location if the appeal panel is following the rules."

We are appealing for a place at our very oversubscribed catchment school which is 0.4 miles from our house. The reason that we haven't been allocated a place is because she is not in a feeder school so did not rank highly enough, we are about 20 on waiting list. We are planning on a location point as part of our appeal as follows:

1. We live within the catchment for X School. The distance from our house to the centre of the school is 0.43 miles; a safe 10 minute walk shared with other students.
2. The journey to her allocated secondary school would involve a solitary 0.5 mile walk to the bus stop, followed by a 4.5 mile bus ride (leave house 0750, bus 0805-0835, school start 0850; total commute time ~1 hour; ~2 hours commute per day). In winter there are reasonable and significant concerns about the safety of an 11 year old girl with a summer birthday making this journey on her own, in the dark in poor weather conditions.

We have very great concerns about getting her to and from school safely, sibling attends primary school and we can't be in 2 places at once.

We are also using specialist science status of school and her excelling at this and sporting reasons.

The school has been oversubscribed for years and has previously taken well over its PAN (1. In previous years, X have taken considerable number of students above their PAN (56 in 2018-19, 30 in 2019-20, 20 in 2020-21). Furthermore, PAN was 300 in 2019-20 compared with 270 this year. )

Do you think our location concerns have any merit?

A journey of up to 75 minutes each way is regarded as reasonable for a secondary school child. If the distance by the shortest safe walking route is more than 3 miles she will be entitled to free transport. Check what the LA offers. Some run special buses rather than expecting children to use public transport.

You can raise your location concerns, but I doubt they will carry much weight. Your points around science and sports are likely to be much stronger.

You should ask the school why they have reduced PAN. If they don't have a good reason (e.g. changes to the building have reduced the number of classrooms) that could help you. The fact they've been substantially over PAN previously is also likely to help.

@vjb153

My view on the distance argument there is that it is very weak I'm afraid. Lots of secondary students have a very similar commute, there really isn't anything exceptional about this. It's also an argument against the allocated school rather than for the wanted one - presumably there are other closer schools as well.

I would check what the specialist science status actually means in practice - the specific extra funding for this was removed some years ago and whilst some schools still claim the moniker, it may not mean much in reality.

The fact they have historically gone over PAN is potentially useful though, if you can ascertain that it had no serious impact on the school. Those are big over-PAN numbers - have they take a specific bulge class in those years?

[quote PatriciaHolm]@vjb153

My view on the distance argument there is that it is very weak I'm afraid. Lots of secondary students have a very similar commute, there really isn't anything exceptional about this. It's also an argument against the allocated school rather than for the wanted one - presumably there are other closer schools as well.

I would check what the specialist science status actually means in practice - the specific extra funding for this was removed some years ago and whilst some schools still claim the moniker, it may not mean much in reality.

The fact they have historically gone over PAN is potentially useful though, if you can ascertain that it had no serious impact on the school. Those are big over-PAN numbers - have they take a specific bulge class in those years?[/quote]
@PatriciaHolm @prh47bridge

Thank you, They had a big bulge year 3 yrs ago and planned for it. This is also a big bulge with the added addition of another primary school having been built within catchment and the council have provided no additional planning/funding for this year. This is the only catchment school, there is 1 other close school than the one allocated but that is even more oversubscribed and not our catchment school (although we are in the feeder school) - although it is where all of her friends are going (but they are in the catchment).

Science status is no longer funded but they still put a big emphasis on science and excel at sports.

would you mind if i message you with one other reason for appeal that we are considering? (personal reason)

No problem if you want to PM me.

Hi, I'm really in need of advice. Here's the situation: DD is at a linked school and we're in the catchment area - up to this year this is guaranteed acceptance at the secondary school and there is a covenant on the junior school as a feeder which the HT and everyone accepts should be in place. Her older sister went there and is now at uni,.
11 DC from this school have not been accepted this year, and 9 are appealing. School HT, MPs, councils etc are all saying this is wrong, we've had press coverage, but no one can do anything this year, just saying plans and finance are in place for future years to correct this.
There has been a massive amount of new builds in the catchment area which is the reason everyone is saying this has happened, but clearly doesn't help
My DD is 3rd on the list, but I've been told other children are still moving into the new builds in the catchment area right now, so she could move down
I have to appeal, and these are the points I'd like to make:

1. I'm a single parent, I work as a chef in the wedding industry and have been told to expect 7 days a week 12 - 12 for the next 6 months after being on furlough for over a year. My job will not be sustainable if DD does not get admitted to this school and will severely affect my job and could result in it being impossible
2. The catchment school is under 3 miles away with multiple school buses covering the village - the school I've been allocated has only one bus that serves surrounding villages, and would mean an extra 6 hours of travel per week
3. The child minder DD has been with since the age of 1 (who takes and collect from school) is in my local area and I have a letter saying she can't accommodate DD if at a different school. My whole support group of parents helping with pick-ups etc are in my village and all are going to catchment school so I can't help or reciprocate with help as it is now
4. My DD dances at a high level 3 times a week with classes starting at 4.30, the other school bus would not get her there in time for lessons and this is at a very high (vocational) level - there are also safe guarding issues with walking alone from the one bus stop off to home

5 DDs mental health is not good, and she needs support of her friends - she has letters from friends

1. I also have letters from current HT, dance teacher and childminder.

We have heard that 12 DC from a non-linked school have been admitted - is this a case for appeal?

Admittance priorities are:

1. Looked after children
2. Adoption
3. Linked in primary in catchment with brother or sister
4. As above, but no siblings in School

Any help and advice anyone could give me would be so massively appreciated

If it is true that children from a non-linked school were admitted and the children concerned were not looked after or adopted and didn't have EHCPs naming the school, that would give you a case for appeal provided your daughter would have been offered a place if this hadn't happened. If that isn't true, your current case is fairly weak. Taking your points in order:

1. The appeal panel wants to hear how your daughter will be disadvantaged if she isn't admitted to the school. It isn't clear why your job would be affected by her not being admitted but, even if there is a clear link, the appeal panel is very unlikely to give this any weight. They would take the view that this point is about disadvantage to you, not disadvantage to your daughter.

1. If the journey is more than 75 minutes in each direction you could argue that it is unreasonable. However, if it is under 75 minutes each way arguments about it being longer and less convenient than the journey to the appeal school are very unlikely to carry any weight.

1. I suspect the appeal panel would be a little surprised at the idea a child of secondary school age still needs a child minder. But, even if they accept that, this argument is very unlikely to carry any weight. Again, this point is about the problems you will face if your daughter isn't admitted, not the problems she will face.

1. If there is genuinely no alternative time for your daughter's dance classes this may carry some weight with the appeal panel.

1. The panel is unlikely to be interested in letters from your daughter's friends. A letter from a professional saying that she has a much greater need to stay with her friends than other children of her age would carry some weight. Without that, this argument is unlikely to carry much weight.

1. Without knowing what the letters say it is impossible to comment on these letters, but I doubt the letter from the childminder will carry any weight.

You can strengthen your case by identifying things the preferred school offers that are not available at the allocated school. Look at the range of subjects offered, extra-curricular activities, etc. See if you can identify anything that is particularly relevant to your daughter. That is the kind of thing the appeal panel is looking for.

By the way, even if you do have a case around children being admitted incorrectly, you still need to strengthen your case. If 12 have been admitted as you say, there will potentially be 12 appellants who have been affected by this. It is quite likely the appeal panel would conclude that the school couldn't handle all of them, in which case they will choose who to admit by looking at the relative strength of the cases.

Hi Patricia. I m not a happy mum, I didn't get my first choice for my child. I have accepted anyway, as if there is any other choice. Thinking of appealling. Still waiting for the formal letter from council about this decision to see what grounds they gave the school I didn't want. Can you give me some more tips what I should write in appealling letter please.

@Sel1001 - You need to show that the disadvantage to your child from not being admitted outweighs any problems the school will face through having to cope with an additional pupil. Remember you are appealing for the school you want, not against the school you've got. Look for things this school offers that are missing from the allocated school and that are particularly relevant to your child.

Note that transport issues will not win an appeal unless your child has special needs which mean they cannot make the journey to the allocated school. Similarly, things that are problems for the family are not relevant.

People often bring up friendship issues, arguing that their child needs to stay with their friends from primary school. That argument will not carry any weight unless there is expert medical evidence to back it up.

Thanks Patricia

Thank you, sorry new here, learning my way round

Thanks

@RaggieDolls keeping things crossed for your friend. I work in admissions and hope they’ve rectified it if it was a mistake.

@PatriciaHolm, from your experience why did we not get any of our choice of sch please? My situation is that I don't leave in the catchment area of our choices of school, but I work in the area, they are grammar schools. My DS pass 11+ extremely well in all the schools.

Another dilemma is I recently moved to Borough. But I want my first choice where I work. I'll appreciate and look forward to your advice. Many thanks x

Not Patricia but...

The reason you didn't get any of your choices is that you weren't high enough in their admission criteria, probably because you don't live in the catchment. The fact you work in the area is irrelevant.

I'm sure it would be more convenient for you if your son goes to a school near where you work but that is not something that is considered in admissions or admission appeals. Sorry.

I’m not Patricia either, but I’m sure prh47bridge is right here.

If you check the oversubscription criteria for the schools, you will probably find that they place in-catchment children in a higher priority group than out of catchment children (or they require a higher score from out of catchment children - both things are common for grammar schools). You should inform the schools/LEA of your new address as it might alter your place on waiting lists, but wanting a school close to your workplace is never a winning argument at appeal.

Hello! Yes, as Panelchair and prh have already said, the issue will almost certainly be that you have applied to schools which take distance in to consideration as well as score, as you have applied to schools near where you work rather than live. Where you work is irrelevant for schools admissions I'm afraid.

Make sure you are on the waiting lists for all suitable schools.