North London: Should I go for selective school while going through custody battle?

[fedupwithcookingfromscratch]

This is going round on a spin cycle in my head, so please bear with me and be kind. I'm a recently divorced North London mum, with a lovely, bright DD currently in Year 5 at her excellent state primary. Last year consisted of lockdown, final breakdown of marriage, (ex has serious 'anger management' issues), and this year looks like it's going to be one long custody battle. The court schedules are absolutely rammed with similar cases and my ex has a love of litigation, deep pockets and a legal team happy to sweep domestic violence under the carpet. DD has witnessed DV, we now have a social worker. and she's having counselling. Before all this, I had planned to put her in for the 11+, as she is in the top groups for all her subjects and I know she could cope with the expected standards. However, with the year we have just had and the year that I know is ahead for her, I don't want to add that kind of pressure. I also don't know how favourably an admissions panel would look on a child who is in the middle of a situation like this and I absolutely will not put her into a situation where she might be judged unfairly because of her dysfunctional parents. I went to private schools where they really didn't want to know about anything like this and I genuinely don't know about grammars, so any first hand experience anyone can share would be great. What's eating away at me, is that I worry I'm letting her down by not giving her a shot at a selective school. She is still way above average despite lockdown and despite all that she has been through. Private school is not an option. We are in the catchment for two outstanding non selective local schools (Fortismere and APS), so I'm thinking I should put her forward for those, let everything calm down, possibly move, then go for 13+ entrance in a couple of years if that seems appropriate. DD is not naturally competitive, she just enjoys school and does really well. She has no strong feelings on the matter and her only concern is whether the schools have their own playing fields.

My kids are at APS and the pastoral care has been amazing (nasty divorce too).

Good luck. Stay strong.

I also don't know how favourably an admissions panel would look on a child who is in the middle of a situation like this and I absolutely will not put her into a situation where she might be judged unfairly because of her dysfunctional parents

Just to reassure you - Assuming you are only talking about state schools, admissions won't have any idea about her situation; admissions have to by law follow their admissions criteria, which must meet the admissions code. Her gaining a place at a selective grammar would be based solely on her exam scores (and possibly address, depending on the school).

@SavageBeauty73 😊. Thank you -that is really helpful. I was worried that she might be more vulnerable than usual to bullies and get lost in such a big place. And @PatriciaHolm, that is really good to know. Given social services are involved, I assumed a report would have to go from her current school as part of her application.

I don't know your area but dd is at a grammar and the pastoral care is excellent and a few of her friends have been well supported through similar situations - obviously it depends on the individual school. Is it possible for her to just "have a go" at 11+ with no pressure, minimal tutoring and just see how she does - stressing it's really not the be all and end all - in the knowledge that you have a couple of great back ups by the sound of it?

I think your local schools both have very good reputations, although I have no personal knowledge. You say private is not an option though and as far as I'm aware 13+ is only for private schools not for selective grammars.

You could try targeting the grammars you want in a low key way, given that you have great state options. We only did a few months of tutoring in the summer of Y5, going through past papers and identifying gaps - however bright they are, they just don't cover all the work for the North London selective schools by the end of Y5. DD was like your DD and not too bothered about going. We also only tried for one school so the process didn't drag on too long. She did still feel a bit of pressure though and didn't really enjoy having to do either a tutorial (an hour a week) or practice papers - 2/3 a week. And quite possibly still won't get a place as is on the waiting list, but we are content with our state options.
It sounds like your DD will do well wherever she goes.

Hi @Stokey - I didn't realise 13+ was only for private schools. Thank you. It sounds like you had the right approach. And @LaPoesieEstDansLaRue - that could be a possibility! Thank you so much. xx

I don't think there is a road that is in the catchment of both APS and Fortismere. If you're further up the hill you'll get Fortismere. Hopefully this year is a little less crazy than the last 3.
Social services will be in contact with the school once they know where she is going, never before and it has nothing to do with admissions unless you're in care.
If your daughter is really that bright, I wouldn't stifle her chances of grammar just because you think it's a lot. It may actually be a nice distraction for her. However, there is a lot of comfort in having local school friends when your parents are divorced.

11 plus exams = stress
Divorce = stress
Reduce some stress and go for APS

Adding to what others have said, at state grammar it will not affect admissions at all. I would look into dates and probably register her for the test (you often have to do this a fair bit in advance of applications). You can then see how you feel nearer the time. Having such good local schools is a real draw. Is there any chance you would be forced to move due to the divorce?

Hi OP - sounds like I’m in similar situation to you and also in the same local area, except that my ex doesn’t have a lot of money.
As others have said, this won’t affect the admissions process and the local schools are good although

Sorry - butter fingers and phone playing up!

I wanted to say that sadly I know from experience that you can’t predict how DV will affect your daughter in years to come. Mine was great, much like yours for a long time but recently we have started seeing behavioural issues and possible sen issues. She’s currently waiting for diagnosis for adhd which is suspect her dad also has, but undiagnosed.
So please be wary of putting too much pressure on your daughter as there maybe impacts from the DV that haven’t shown up yet.

Either Fortismere or APS would be schools where a bright child can thrive. I wouldn’t push a child through grammar school entrance if you would definitely get a place at one or the other.

Sorry you and your DD are going through this.

It’s great that you have good, non selective options. Would double check that DD should, based on entry critieria, be offered a place. Presume you won’t be moving house?

As PPs say admission to the state selective secondary will be solely on basis of exam scores. Presumably given your area it’s a ‘super selective’ and entry is v competitive, with many (already bright) DC being heavily tutored by their private school, parent and/or paid tutor.

Entry after 11 won’t be a feasible option as few places will come up and competition will be even higher.

If your DD is the type not to mind some extra study, tests, ‘knockbacks’, you could give it a try with the assumption she won’t be selected and has v good school options. If any of that is likely to stress her out, would just go straight for those options.

Hi all, this is such fantastic advice, thank you so so much.🥰 @lpsandmore @Dozer I've been relying on advice from friends and neighbours about catchment areas but just looked it up on the council website. We are fractionally closer to Fortismere and inside the area where offers were made last year - and outside of APS by the tiniest percentage imaginable. But I guess enough to make a difference. @10YellowTulips I'm so sorry to hear this - it is exactly what I am worried about for my DD so I can imagine how it feels. So bloody avoidable. I hope you both get the support you need. We don't have to move at this point, and as nice as a fresh start would be for both of us, it would add yet another stress into the same time frame (ie the next six months).

I'm guessing you are halfway up the hill. It's meant to be a less crazy year this year so hopefully you get the one you want. If your heart is set on APS and you don't get it, stick on the waiting list and possibly appeal.

You’ve left it a bit late, your heart isn’t in it and you have other good options anyway. Normally I’d say go for grammar but it sounds like you’ve got enough on your plate right now. Bright kids usually do well wherever they go.

So sorry you're going through this awful situation.

There's some excellent advice upthread but all I'd say is in your position I wouldn't put either your DD or yourself through the stress of the N London super-selective 11+ process if you have Fortismere and/or APS on your doorstep. As an aside, bullying is rarer in most secondaries than you might think, schools are generally super-hot on stamping it out.

Best of luck to both you and your DD. She sounds like a girl who will thrive in a good school with you to support her. And please don't think non-selective means you are in any way letting her down, there's a lot to be said for a mixed-ability environment.

Firstly, both Fortismere and APS are good schools. APS is quite a bit smaller than Fortismere. I know children at both schools who are enjoying their school. They're quite different though, so put them in the order you prefer.

The most important is your DD's wellbeing. But If your DD doesn't mind some extra work (depends on how much homework there is anyway) then I cannot see any harm in doing some prep work in case you think she would like to sit any grammar exam later on. I've seen several children deciding just before the application to sit the exam is due, telling their parents that they want to do it as they start talking about it in school, leaving very little time to prepare. The 11+ only becomes stressful if you make it stressful.

The children who do get in are by no means the most tutored (but others want to claim that). For what it's worth, I know several children being tutored to be in the top set at one of the mentioned schools. This is part of North London, I'm afraid. I don't like it, but that's how it is. Just try to not get dragged into it.

You know your DD best. The biggest difference between the APS/Fortismere and the grammar schools is not the teaching/education but the other students according to parents that have children both in grammar and Fortismere/APS. Think of where your DD would be happier. But you won't get wrong from an academic point of view either way

My kids both went to Fortismere but would have easily got into APS re catchment. Think Muswell Road near the Broadway. Different scenario it was a few years ago and they made their preference on the basis of where their friends (from Muswell Hill Primary) were mainly going. They went through divorce but younger in primary. I cannot now comment on catchments or quality of schooling. Fortismere is excellent but of course its a very large school.

What I would say:

• Judge it on what you both feel about pastoral care and culture
• What your DD wants and is happy with is essential during this terribly hard time - it really matters where her friends are, how supported she feels and her preference - what does she want - trust her gut.
• My DS had some tough times with bullying at Fortismere and his teachers were brilliant - they nipped it in the bud, gained his confidence and sorted it out. Don't be put off by the suggestion of bullying. It happens at every school and private ones just pretend it doesn't. They are not honest. I know that from a friends recent experience. Its not good marketing so its covered up.
• I'd say that being in walking distance of all your friends is a real bonus of being at Fortismere or APS. My DC had such a fun time, walking everywhere to friends and as they got older to parties etc. I did not spend my life driving them everywhere at all.
• Muswell Hill is a very warm community and its nice for your kids to feel part of it and protected by it. Factor that in for you child in this difficult time. If going to a selective school means going out of the area they might miss out on all that sense of belonging.
• Re the private or selective school (forgive me) as an ex Henrietta Barnett girl - think hard about such a hothouse school. I wouldn't send my DD there. It might not be what you're thinking of but be really careful. HBS is an extreme hothouse. Other private schools do have very privileged kids with a lot of money. I'd not choose them for my DC. Think about the culture you want for your DD really, really carefully.
• Bright kids thrive at excellent state schools and they have a rounded life and their creativity and wellbeing matter too. they are also more aware of diversity and equality and are far more politically aware.

MH is a great place to grow up and I love my kids' friends from Fortismere. Its not really a gamble given the privilege of the area.

@bouledeneige I agree with a lot that you say, but I doubt that Fortismere would make a child more aware about diversity. Except for one private school that we looked at, Fortismere was the least diverse one of them all. But you might mean that they teach about diversity more than others? The same goes with being more politically aware - not true at all. Maybe not less but definitely not more. Yes, most friends' children go there. And more aware of equality? Who are you comparing with?

Many points you're making are absolutely valid but no need to exaggerate.

(Btw the girls I know going to HBS love it and don't feel it's pressured. It's all about finding the right school for the child, not making the child fit a certain school).

I don't think I was exaggerating - its just my experience of my DC and their friends at Fortismere versus their friends at private schools.
Compared with their private school counterparts my DC had friends who were Kosovan refugees, Muslims, living in council housing, having free school meals, and had classmates with learning difficulties and disabilities.

Diversity goes beyond colour of skin and also includes economic advantage. Of course Muswell Hill is a very privileged middle class area but it is naturally more diverse than most private schools. It seems a bit obvious to say that.

My DC's private school friends:

• did not know anyone who lived in council housing or got free school meals
• did not know what 'learning difficulties' were or know anyone with a disability
• mostly only knew other people who took three holidays a year
• mostly lived in houses with multiple 'help' from cleaners, to nannies to housekeepers
• did not know anyone who shared a room with a sibling

Honestly I don't think that's an exaggeration. But it is from my experience of my DC's friends. And yes, they are mostly very middle class and privileged in many ways. Mostly.

Fair enough if you don't think HBS is a hothouse! I wen there and in my DD's age group I knew girls there, at NLCS, South Hampstead and Mill Hill. They might not seem like hothouses but there is a huge contrast in culture between APS and Fortismere.

One of my DD's friends went to boarding school out of London and comes from a very rich background but she is very like my DD, she is a very free spirit and very creative like my DD and hated the culture of her private school and has no friends from it.

As I said, culture is everything. And OP knows her DD best and what suits her. She should definitely have her say. Muswell Hill is a a lovely village to grow up in and be a teenager in.

Muswell Hill is a village???

Yes it really feels like a village. I don't even know why you would doubt that. I've lived here for 22 years and can walk up the road and bump into lots of people I know - from neighbours to parents from school days, kids I know and people in shops I know. I can spend the whole weekend walking in the woods, Ally Pally, along the disused railway line and down to Crouch End without ever needing to drive. In normal times I can go to a pub or for a coffee or a meal, see a movie or go swimming, a farmers market or a Muswell creatives fair, I can do the Crouch end artists festival all without ever getting in a car. It's a community, a village on the edge of London.

I don't know why that's a shock at all! It's a thriving buzzing neighbourhood. I spent an hour chatting to people walking past my house today as I cleared my front garden.

Ipsandmore don't you feel part of it? And why so cross?

It's only my experience but I know it's what my DD 20 would say too. She says it's a village. She loves being able to walk everywhere and bump into lots of friends everywhere. Getting a coffee, in Ally Pally, outside planet organic, on the railway line. She's always meeting people she knows. What wrong with that? It's lovely. Is that not your experience?

I'm not cross lol, just confused. It's great but I wouldn't call it a village, it's an area of London! A very densely populated one at that with awful transport links. I love it though don't get me wrong. I'm not cross. Would you call Tottenham or Stoke Newington a village too? I could do all those things there too when I lived in those places. I find it really strange when people call it that, especially when they sound like they're being serious.