North London: Should I go for selective school while going through custody battle?

[fedupwithcookingfromscratch]

This is going round on a spin cycle in my head, so please bear with me and be kind. I'm a recently divorced North London mum, with a lovely, bright DD currently in Year 5 at her excellent state primary. Last year consisted of lockdown, final breakdown of marriage, (ex has serious 'anger management' issues), and this year looks like it's going to be one long custody battle. The court schedules are absolutely rammed with similar cases and my ex has a love of litigation, deep pockets and a legal team happy to sweep domestic violence under the carpet. DD has witnessed DV, we now have a social worker. and she's having counselling. Before all this, I had planned to put her in for the 11+, as she is in the top groups for all her subjects and I know she could cope with the expected standards. However, with the year we have just had and the year that I know is ahead for her, I don't want to add that kind of pressure. I also don't know how favourably an admissions panel would look on a child who is in the middle of a situation like this and I absolutely will not put her into a situation where she might be judged unfairly because of her dysfunctional parents. I went to private schools where they really didn't want to know about anything like this and I genuinely don't know about grammars, so any first hand experience anyone can share would be great. What's eating away at me, is that I worry I'm letting her down by not giving her a shot at a selective school. She is still way above average despite lockdown and despite all that she has been through. Private school is not an option. We are in the catchment for two outstanding non selective local schools (Fortismere and APS), so I'm thinking I should put her forward for those, let everything calm down, possibly move, then go for 13+ entrance in a couple of years if that seems appropriate. DD is not naturally competitive, she just enjoys school and does really well. She has no strong feelings on the matter and her only concern is whether the schools have their own playing fields.

With Foretismere and ASP on your doorstep, I don’t see which grammar you would be targeting that would give your daughter a better education. Save yourself the stress and send her to either school

I am sorry you are going through this.

Like what @Stokey and @@ineverstopedbeingsurprised - you know your DD best and if she is up to doing some extra work, it might be a good distraction to the drama. But you should also have the time to give feedback …

Whilst 11+ is another drama by itself - just make sure you do not get dragged into the whole shebang of preparations that many many parents do. If you stay cool and calm, there should be less 11+ drama. (We have friends in more like NW London that it is but normal to go through tuition after tuition after tuition after more - just before the HBS test. I do not think these are super necessary.) You have excellent state back-ups! If she is up for the process, you must explain to her as well that the comp options are excellent. The outcome will have to be win win for you both.

Are you Catholic? St Michael’s normally has fewer applicants.
Latymer? Less hothouse than HBS.

You said that that your ex has deep pockets. I wonder if you can try to apply to some indies and let him pay for the fees …

@Bouledeneige I don't know what you are on about as OP clearly stated that the option was Fortismere/APS or a state selective (grammar). It was clearly expressed that an independent school was not an option. Hence, I do not understand the comparison with independent schools re diversity,

As I find diversity very important, I did my research about this when we were in the process of choosing a secondary school and Fortismere has a low level of FSMs and less ethnic diversity than other secondary schools nearby and in comparison with other London schools. This can be easily checked. I don't understand the need to deny that? Fortismere is just not more diverse than the other potential options, rather less. It might hurt to hear that. It is very North London though to claim to be against independent schools but in reality the same people would never consider any other state school than Fortismere or APS.

HBS might be considered a hothouse for some as there are many parents who make their girls fit the school rather than the other way around (just read on Mumsnet). But if parents took the view of finding the school that would fit the child, then HBS is absolutely not too pressurised for that type of girl.. There are children that have been coasting all the way through primary school and still come out at the very top and that enjoy being challenged academically. I know girls blossoming going to HBS.

I think that OP knows her DD best. If her DD is not "emotionally stable" enough to go through the process due to everything going on at the moment, then 11+ might not be the right thing to do. But the process doesn't have to be horrendous, if the DC wants it. They do talk about it in school and they will soon be back seeing each other IRL. It is hard if your DC wants to sit the exams but no prep has been done and all friends have prepped for it.

But APS and Fortismere are good schools so OP's DD would never end up with a "bad" school regardless of route taken.

@ineverstopbeingsurprised I agree with you wholeheartedly. There is a lot of ego stroking in this neck of the woods and facing the truth isn't really comfortable. We live on the doorstep of APS but decided to send our DD to Heartlands for various reasons, and it was nothing to do with scoring diversity points at the dinner table. The amount of eyebrow raising I got.... was about the same I would've gotten if I had sent her private. Which really says a lot about the thought process of many.
OP trust your instinct. It is so true that people end up wanting their kids to fit into the school just for the kudos that the name brings, but if your daughter is a top flier in MH primaries, she would probably do great there.

@lpsandmore Only heard amazing things about Heartlands.

We live in the area and my daughter didn't want me to apply to Heartland because she attended 11+ preparatory courses (at Explore Learning) with some kids from Heartland and she didn't like them. That may have been bad luck though. I know someone with one child at Heartland and one at Latymer and she says Heartland is "ok", but nothing amazing, but I guess that's in comparison to Latymer. APS and Fortismere would be my choices though.

Sorry, they weren't specific 11+ prep courses, just extra English & Maths courses at Explore Learning

@XelaM I think there's horrible kids everywhere to be honest and it's not very fair to judge a school on them, but I understand what you mean. My DD is a regular at NLPAC and we've come across some horrible snotty kids there that put me right off their schools, which is silly really. It swings in roundabouts. I think everyone wants to feel like their kids school is great, the reality is no school is great for everyone. My DD has flourished at Heartlands but I am not blind to its flaws. Naturally she has lots of old friends at APS and from speaking to their parents, it sounds like every school will have its fair share of problems. There are some that would sell their soul for a place at APS, and others who put it as fifth choice and pray they don't get it.

Just to add, quite funny but I have one at Latymer and one at Heartlands and it's two very very different schools. I think Heartlands is an ok school for very high achievers, amazing for middle to low or late bloomers. Latymer would completely fail my DD but my DS loves it.

@lpsandmore Yes, I have heard that Latymer is great for self-motivated kids, but because it's apparently not pushy some kids actually don't do well there. I know of two kids of friends who actually didn't do well at Latymer because it places a lot of trust on the student being responsible and studying in his/her own time

@xelaM yes, I would agree. Because of their demographic they really don't have much funds so even if they wanted to do some hand holding, they just don't have the staff/money. We are also always surprised at how much more expensive his trips are (for the same thing) eg HHS ski trip was £640, same trip to same place was over £1k at Latymer. We also have to pay for much more 'stuff'.

@lpsandmore Ohh, that's interesting about Latymer. I think the most desirable thing about the school is it's extremely selective intake, so you know your kid will be surrounded by studious very bright kids.

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@xelam oh god they all get so lazy by Y9 though. Maybe it's just my experience but so many of my DS's friends seem to struggle with the fact that GCSE content doesn't come easily and you actually have to study which a lot of them have ever only really done once, and that was for the 11+. I have noticed there is a lot of smart kid burnout by the time they're 15 which is sad as that's the key years. They must pull it out the bag somehow, Latymer has never had bad results but still, it's frustrating to watch.

Just to add, grammar school at 6th form is always an option. My DD joined HBS in 6th form (from private). Admissions are much more straightforward than 11+ as it is "just" based on GCSE grades. One of her best friends joined from Fortismere.

So interesting to hear about Latymer @Ipsandmore. We'll be on the waiting list this year and not sure whether to accept a place should we get offered one. One of the things that appeals is being surrounded by other bright kids as DD is often bored in class at the moment, but not sure that she's that self-motivated!

I have a child at Fortismere - do message me if there is anything you'd like to know at all. I've been pleased with it on the whole and my son loves it and seems to be doing well.

I agree with the poster who said that you are unlikely to be in a position to be close enough to have the choice on APS or Fortismere, at first offer date anyway (there is a little movement after that). The Haringey Admissions brochure shows the cut-offs in recent years, if you are interested.

I don't have much to add re the grammar school process though agree with the posters who say that if you do go for it, it can certainly be done in a lower pressured way. It wasn't a route we went down.

Fantastic advice ladies. @Zinnia thank you so much for those lovely words, the fear of letting her down has been a big worry. @ineverstopbeingsurprised you're right. My focus needs to be on choosing a school that will wrap around her and allow her to be/find herself as she grows up, rather than somewhere where she has to 'fit in' with a school ethos. She has a gentle nature and I think works hard because she gets genuine pleasure out of doing well, rather than a need to please anyone else. I think the drama that is ahead of us in the next six months (and probably beyond given current court schedules) is something she will need distraction from. It will also help me put 11+ parental stress and mania into perspective. I have a REAL problem on my hands! @lpsandmore. I do agree with you about the ego stroking around school entrance. The parental one upmanship that went on at my DD's current school during the 7+ entrance exams was horrible to even witness, so God knows what it must have been like to be in the middle of it. @Bouledeneige just about all of her friends will be sitting entrance exams of some kind so I can easily imagine a scenario where she suddenly announces that she wants to and if we haven't done any prep that would be quite upsetting. But @TomorrowOnce as you say, the key is how it's pitched. We have an excellent school on our doorstep, and I know a few of her friends are definitely going there. So maybe I put her in for HBS as the grounds and surrounding areas are lovely, which is important to her. I don't think she would like Latymer for that reason and we're not Catholic so St Michael's isn't an option. And if she doesn't get in, we'll decide it's rubbish and it's actually a relief as she won't have a commute and she can roll out of bed and into school. And if she gets in and doesn't want to go, there's no law that says she has to. So Win Win. I now feel absolutely confident that having local friends, a familiar environment and a school that's outstanding anyway is far from a poor second choice. Finally, asking my ex to make any kind of financial commitment to anything at the moment is quite an incendiary prospect so there's no point!

@stokey don't let my experience put you off. My DS is in Y9 so has missed most of Y8 and really only had a proper y7, they are all very young y9s. I have spoken to parents in the upper years and most kids have tutors so we will probably do that too at some point. In hindsight I think he would've done just as well at APS or Heartlands without the treck. I also feel like Heartlands actually listens to my feedback, Latymer is very much of the attitude that what we do works, we don't need to change it. HHS had a lot of feedback re the high achievers and have set up a maths competition team amongst other things. You feel really listened to. I think Latymer might have that too but it's probably, like many things, reserved for the very very bright.
All of this is completely anecdotal though! My DS isn't one to reach out, if he did, he probably could join. I wouldn't move him as he's happy but I probably wouldn't do it again. It is a big reason why we tried to not overthink the 'names' of the school and actually sent DD to the school that would fit her. The secondary school names race is a big bloody deal in N London and I wish I had been a bit less snobby about it all when I was choosing a school for my DS. If you told me my DD would end up at Heartlands I probably would've laughed. There are very few people on Mumsnet that say the truth about all this.
@fedupwithcookingfromscratch lots of love to you and your DD. It'll be ok.

@fedupwithcookingfromscratch If your daughter's friends are sitting any kind of entrance exams, it's not unlikely that she might want to do that. We had a tutor for DC but said from the start that it was DC's responsibility. I wanted to gauge the ability to work independently and see how driven DC was once being challenged. It did help that DC's primary only really had spelling as homework. Throughout I said that there's the option to stop but that it's hard to change your mind later. A 10 year old that is motivated would understand that. But, unlike others I know, at no point in time did I "bribe" with money or presents. It is not how I work.

Halfway through Yr7 and I'm confident we made the right choice. DC is flourishing and has, without being asked, said how much more interesting the discussions are now compared to at primary, not least because DC's new friends have more different inputs as it's a more ethnically diverse cohort.

I'm not a parent so don't have anything to add to the discussion really, except that Fortismere don't wear uniforms, which my be deal breaker. In fact if I did have kids, and was faced with two equally good performing schools, the only deal breaker being uniforms, I'd go for the school with uniforms. But that's by the by, it's not me makingthe decision.

I just wanted to say 'hi' and wave to all my neighbours, APS is my local school, though I know Heartlands and Fortismere. If anyone sees someone in Albert Rd rec playing bubbles with a very energetic dog (normally surrounded by about half a dozen kids, none of whom are mine) that will be me.

Another thing to consider is sixth form. I know it’s a long way off, but it comes upon you all too soon! It’s really good to feel that whatever secondary your child goes to, if they stay on for 6 th form they will be well served.
Latymer for example didn’t seem to have that fantastic results at 6th form when I looked. Maybe because it balloons at that point and is really quite large.

Anyway, just mentioning it as it’s good for kids to feel like they can stay if they want to.
Good luck.