Exams cancelled 2

[Orangeblossom1977]

Started a new thread as last one is full.

But if you are manipulating your curve when there is a genuine grade boundary already set as in this example surely you are doing your students a disservice to award them a higher grade

Not if you are talking about expected grades, not working at grades. If you are giving them a mock and want them to know what they would have got if it was the real exam, then using the actual grade boundaries is fine.

Predicting grades in my subject also involves ranking pupils, sometimes just mentally. If I'm teaching top set I know that top set gets grades between 7-9. So I'll give a kid whose test results put them at the bottom of the group a predicted grade of a 7, and the kid at the top a 9. It gets fuzzier in between.

Parents will then think I'm good at predicting grades because they're mostly right.

The problem we've got here is that we are not supposed to be awarding the kid what we think that they would have got in the real thing had covid not existed, which we did last year. We're supposed to be looking at their work and giving their work a grade. But grades aren't based on standards of work, they're based on rankings of pupils.

If we wanted to give students a reasonable 'working at' grade then we would give them a mock and use that year's grade boundaries. Except we can't do that because we're only supposed to be testing them on what they've been taught. So the paper will be cut down and the working at grades will go up, but in a way that won't be standardised across schools.

That's if you use past papers. If you're doing your own assessments, the grade boundaries will be either totally made up before the paper, in which case good luck, or they will be set once the results are in to ensure that the cohort get the 'right' grades (i.e. ranking pupils and fitting the results to the usual grade profile for a cohort in that school).

surely you are doing your students a disservice to award them a higher grade as they then have an unrealistic expectation as to where they are genuinely performing
I know. But I'm not in charge. I know my marking is accurate but the grading is less so.

As far as I am aware dd's school use working at grades when assessing. So her English essays come back with a grade on it. Dd usually gets 4 - 4+ with the odd 5- or 5 so her predicted grade to work towards is a 5 but she is currently working at a high 4.

I am hoping this is correct as all she needs is a 4. She is dyslexic and won't be continuing with any essay based subjects.

@MrsHamlet

So like the other poster’s school, my DS’ school also grade each piece of work with a numbered grade. He had a piece marked last week as a 7 and one this week as a 6. We assumed they related in some way to the GCSE grades as we have never been told any different so I was feeling mildly confident that we knew roughly where he was sitting. But from what you’ve just said that might not actually be the case?

Ok so yes that makes sense in the context of "expected grades" rather than "working at " grades. As long as it is indicated to the student and parent that is what the grade is.

In English, there are 6 levels to the mark scheme and 9 grades.
I can tell you that you got 23 but 23 is not a grade. I could tell you that 23 that year on that question would be grade whatever... but even that isn't an exact science because grades are awarded for the combined nark across two papers.
I wish it was straightforward. It really isn't.

Sorry - that should say in literature. In language there are only 4.

Great explanations noble, mrshamlet and seasonfinale. Incredibly helpful thank you. I finally understand the issues.
It’s a hard pill to swallow knowing that a bottom ranked Tim could be working his backside off but if Joe and the rest of the cohort are too, it won’t make much difference. He needs to do better (or Joe do worse) to get into that fuzzier zone. I have never considered the relevance of ranking previously. I don’t much like it.

I'm really sorry if this has been covered on the this thread already- but will FFT targets be used to form final grades? This is really worrying me as DDs FFT targets are so low. In year 10 teachers were gleefully saying how great it was she was already working beyond target grade, but now I'm terrified it's going to drag her final grade down as teachers are going to have to justify why she's getting a much higher grade.

but will FFT targets be used to form final grades?

No. There’s nothing in the guidance to suggest that target grades will form any part of the evidence. FFT is a paid-for service and it’s worth remembering that they will be bobbins anyway as they have been generated from the new SATs and have never actually been tested (I.e. no cohort with the new KS2 SATs results has actually sat GCSEs to give them any concrete data to work with).

This would have been the first cohort to sit GCSEs with the new KS2 SATS results wouldn't it

Thanks @noblegiraffe - that's a relief- I hadn't thought about them being the first cohort with the new SATs, I've just been kicking myself about being so laid back about SATs in Y6 and not letting her go to the after school maths sessions back then.

Yes my ds’s target grade is relatively low because of his SATs which were around 107 whereas he’s now excelled in maths and computers etc. Whereas dd got full marks and has 8/9 target grade. It’s been trotted out at parents evening and trackers since y7, dd has been hailed a genius whereas I’ve had conversations with teachers about ds like ‘yes he’s got top marks in all his maths tests so on track to achieve his target grade at least’ and I’m like I think you need to scrap that target grade why are you telling me he’s getting 9s then telling me his target grade, I don’t want to hear it. The school have said they won’t take them into account but they’ve always been there and been an influence. Luckily dd is rising to the challenge but I feel it’s followed ds like a bad smell. He’s always been disorganised and distractible and obviously more so aged 11 when were were all saying they don’t matter.

Jesus - SATS grades??

My ds small Middle School was closed down by the LEA (low numbers)

His SATS grades were put into 'long storage' at County Hall & Lost!!

Can I challenge this at this stage?

DS said they were affecting him but he has ASD and sometimes gets things muddled. The School is an Academy in Special Measures and the Head & Senco & Year Head literally don't answer letters etc.

Ds has a grade 5 for everything right now.

I’ve seen so much about SATS in the past and been accused of being selfish for pulling DD out of school for last term of Y6 and home schooling and how it would negatively impact later on as there’d be no benchmark, but the opposite has been true. She has always been seen as an individual in all subjects and not on some path set aged 10. I don’t know how much of this is down to the school or absence of a SATS score, but hearing from some other parents at other schools the SATs pathway is a shadow I am glad DD isn’t under.

@PettsWoodParadise
My ds says that in the absence of SATS scores they give them a middling grade so they have some sort of benchmark?

In the absence of SATS at our place those students get put in bottom set until we baseline assess. This year we've had mixed ability and no SATS data so our end of year assessment is going to be interesting.

We'll look at SATS scores to make sure our data isn't wildly inaccurate, and also to check for bias. But it won't form part of our judgement.

@katieloves

Am I right in thinking that a dc who has completed the whole syllabus for a subject could potentially get the same grade as a dc who has only done half the course?

Yes. This is why I am (partly) against this solution. I do think those schools who opted out of providing any meaningful teaching during the first lockdown should be held to account for that. On the other hand, the pupils shouldn't suffer. It's a hard one.

I also think it's more important that you are performing at a certain level, rather than knowing loads of "stuff" but it does depend on the subject, and I imagine universities will have to put some sort of catch up plan in place.

I just need to vent today. My DD is so stressed at the moment still with the uncertainty of it all. She's been grinding her teeth in her sleep - perhaps for the whole of the past year - and now needs a mouth guard made to sleep in. She still hasn't heard from her 6th form college about when she is back in and when she will have covid tests, or when the school year finishes. Her friends at schools who are doing proper mocks as soon as they are back are in tears every day.

I'm so angry with this government and find it incredulous that they don't understand what they have done to our young people who are in exam years. It's not the changing of the plan that is so much an issue - it's a pandemic, we understand - but it's the lack of a plan that is causing the stress and damage to mental health. And to parents and teachers too I imagine!

Please write to your MP and ask him to pass your complaint to the Secretary of State for Education. You should (eventually) get a response. I got one from Nick Gibb, schools minister when my MP passed an email on to the DfE.

You are right that the situation is totally unacceptable. The announcement the other day didn’t really resolve anything, it just passed the buck to schools. I feel so sorry for the kids.

We've just received a letter from school for DD yr11, basically saying exactly ...not a lot. Totally don't blame the school or the teachers, they're trying to reassure us (kids and parents) but with really very little information. So no mention of the mocks #2 due to begin next week but parents evening this Thursday. We will receive a working at grade after Easter, I assume to be calculated from mocks and assessments...information says we will be told what they work they are basing the grade on but we don't know yet (guessing they don't either).
It's all so stressful for everyone, I'm just hopeful the schools promise of ensuring as much as possible the kids get the grade they deserve and can move on to the next path they choose does come to fruition.

Thanks Noblegiraffe. I will do that today. I always doubt it will have an impact but at least feels better to have had my say

Quick qn to Noblegiraffe , Mrs Hamlet and any other teachers out there

If you were using old papers to assess for CAGs, say make Y11 do an Eng Lang Or Maths Paper, would schools used an unpublished specimen paper with no grade boundaries, or a past but yet unpublished paper with grade boundaries. Would it not be the latter, to help in any ranking?

The ranking can be done regardless of grade boundaries. The grade boundaries are sort of irrelevant this year as the paper may be adjusted to leave out stuff students haven't been taught.

If you're in the department and have concerns speak to your HOD.

If you're a parent, I'd stay well out of it. There will be reasons why that paper has been chosen.