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Secondary education

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Original poster

Top grammar or good comp for extremely bright but sensitive DS?

45 replies

Racquelscottish · 04/02/2021 19:59

As above really, we are in London. DS is very bright, excellent at maths and science. The closest school to us is a really "good" grammar, lots of London parents aim for it. It does get very good results. People say it is not very nurturing, not great parent communication, and seems quite segregated into grammar stream and non grammar stream. We're actually not in catchment despite living a few streets away but I think DS would get a place via selection.

Other school is a bit further away, is now rated good but not very very academic, they don't send many kids to top universities but they are really trying. Great pastoral support, nice community feel, very arty. It's about a 20 minute bus or a 40 minute walk away.

DH and I both went to grammar schools and vowed we would never send our kids there! Our experience was that they were very competitive, very snobby, didn't care about anything but grades. DS isn't the most confident kid, he likes his circle of friends but I worry about bullying and find that almost more important than academics really as he is likely to do well regardless. Am I looking at this wrong? Am I obligated to send him to the best possible school that will push for the best possible results so that he has the best chance in life? I don't really want my kid to have a skewed view of the kind of people who live in his local community, our experience of state grammars was that it was all middle class kids, quite a lot of very rich kids too.

The other thing is that the grammar school is so close by, would be very handy to have a five minute walk to school...

OP posts:
Sohoso · 04/02/2021 20:11

I’d choose the grammar school. I went to one myself, I didn’t find it particularly competitive. If he’s a stand out clever boy he’s more likely to be bullied at the comp, surely. I also went to a comprehensive school for a couple of years before we moved.

Original poster
Racquelscottish · 04/02/2021 20:17

Our personal experience was that bullying was much more widespread at grammars than friends at comps.

OP posts:
Hersetta427 · 04/02/2021 20:19

Why don't you name the grammar to get some actual experiences from people?

LizzieSiddal · 04/02/2021 20:21

What does your son think?

Cookerhood · 04/02/2021 20:31

How can a grammar school have a non- grammar stream?

Thereisacrack · 04/02/2021 20:34

It’s so important to try and get beyond your own experience of school and try to look at the actual schools you have to choose between. The grammars and comps you and your peers went to will be worlds away from the ones your ds might go to. And tbh any two grammars or comps will be very different from each other too.

I’ve taught in a range of London schools and the risk of bullying seems to me to be totally unrelated to whether it’s a comp/grammar/co-Ed/single sex etc. and much more to do with the culture in the particular school. I really don’t agree that clever kids are likely to be bullied in London comps nowadays - I haven’t seen that at all. Success is respected in whatever area. You need to decide by talking to people involved with the school whether it feels like somewhere that will be good at looking after your ds in all the ways that matter. It’s worth bearing in mind that pastoral care and thinking about the whole child really has changed in schools completely in the last 20 years, whatever type of school it is. For what it’s worth, I am not a fan of grammar schools in principle, but still think your son sounds as if he’d benefit from a bright peer group and the slightly more academic quality of maths/science teachers grammar schools tend to attract if he’s very bright in those areas. And it’s 5 minutes away!

sydenhamhiller · 04/02/2021 20:35

Hi Rachel - my son was/ is like yours. We’re in London too, and he is at a grammar. Do you want to PM me?

Stokey · 04/02/2021 20:40

How old is DS? If you're aiming for one of the super selective grammars, most children start working towards them in Y5 or even earlier. I don't really understand your comment about not in the catchment but would get in on selection. Most London grammars have a catchment and selection as far as I'm aware, it's not either or. Like Hersetta says, name the grammar to get a better opinion.

With regards to bullying, that can happen anywhere and is just as likely to happen at the local comp as a grammar.

Standrewsschool · 04/02/2021 20:53

Why don’t you go around both grammars and see what fits best.

We were in a similar situation. We chose the grammar, as we thought if he didn’t like it/struggled, it would be easier to go from grammar to non-GS, rather than the opposite way.

Bullying can occur at all schools, and don’t believe any school that says they don’t have bullying. It’s how they deal with it that matters.

What does your dc want to do?

Zodlebud · 04/02/2021 20:57

I think children do best where they are happy. I spent ages obsessing over “the best” schools but actually when we visited them we didn’t like them. In fact, I thought my daughter would be miserable there.

It’s a brave parent who chooses to not tutor and then turn down a place at a school most people would donate a kidney to get their kids into - that’s what we did and it caused ripples amongst other parents. It just didn’t feel right.

Always follow your gut reaction.

GuyFawkesDay · 04/02/2021 21:00

Agree with PP, my DD is bright and sensitive. Nearly got a place but just missed out.

He's thriving as a top set kid in a good comp. He will get similar GCSEs to the grammar I suspect, but without the pressure.

Being there with friends from primary has made life easier. We were very fortunate his classmates from primary are all just lovely kids so he's a lucky lad.

It's not perfect but it suits him, and that's what matters.

Original poster
Racquelscottish · 04/02/2021 21:06

Thanks all. Grammar is Graveney School, it's an unusual one, they let in a % of kids purely on catchment and then a % purely on admissions test.

OP posts:
FlyingPandas · 04/02/2021 21:18

Agree with others, dc will do best where they are happy and supported and at the end of the day what is right for one child will not necessarily be right for another. The ‘best school’ will not necessarily be best for your child.

Also (and I say this as gently as possible as a parent of a DC going through 11+ in SW London / Surrey this year) don’t, whatever you do, underestimate the competitive nature of the race for selective secondary places, both grammar and independent, in London. Be realistic as well as optimistic. Being super bright won’t necessarily cut it these days unfortunately and there’s no guarantee that any child will get in, even if you think they will.The sheer numbers who apply (never mind the amount of tutoring that goes on) can be eye watering.

Hersetta427 · 04/02/2021 21:26

They only give 70/180 places based on ability so plenty of the pupils won't have passed the 11+. I doubt it will have a hothouse feel that some of the full on grammars in that area are so sounds like it would be a good choice as you may find he will thrive in a setting where the top stream are challenged

AveEldon · 04/02/2021 22:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AlexaShutUp · 04/02/2021 22:41

My dd is at a comp (year 11) - thankfully no grammars in this area, as I really don't agree with them. Academically, she is thriving - predicted all 9s in her GCSEs and got all 9s in her mocks. Socially, she is thriving too - she has tons of friends of very varied academic ability. Some of her friends think she is a bit of a freak because she does so well in her studies, but they accept that that's just how she is, and she has never had any negative comments or bullying.

I am really grateful for her being at a comp because she has learned so much about people who are different from herself, and she has learned to appreciate their different strengths. For example, one of her friends is not remotely academic, but she is exceptionally emotionally intelligent and incredibly kind. Another one is a bit of a rebel and totally uninterested in school, but they have bonded over a shared love of drama. I'm really glad that dd is able to see this, and I have seen her empathy, understanding and respect for others really develop and grow during her time at the school. I wouldn't ever want her closeted away in a school full of people just like her.

MrsBobDylan · 04/02/2021 23:05

DS is at a very under performing comp in a deprived area (no grammars).

He is bright and studious, just wants to go to school, learn stuff and come home again. He loves his school because he gets to be one of their top students. Because the school takes in so many students who have additional needs and have been expelled from nearby schools, it has the best resourced pastoral care any school could possibly have.

I am saving money so I can pay for extra lessons if he needs them near his GCSEs so it's all good.

His confidence would take a battering at a selective school, surrounded by very bright children coming from homes where parents can afford lots of extra curricular stuff and tutors.

NiceTwin · 04/02/2021 23:18

@AlexaShutUp kids at grammar are no different to those in a comp. They certainly aren't a bunch of closeted away clones.

There are tall ones, short ones, sporty ones, musical ones, geeky ones and many more.
The only similarity between them is they scored X amount on a test so all reached an academic level at 10/11 years of age.

Original poster
Racquelscottish · 05/02/2021 07:09

Nicetwin there is strong evidence that grammar school kids are, in general, from more middle-class /wealthy backgrounds. Of course there are exceptions on the individual level but the cohort of a grammar school is noticeably different to a non-selective school.

OP posts:
Spring2021 · 05/02/2021 07:19

What does your son think? Around here bullying is far worse at Comps as the GS is much smaller 4 form classes they seem to have more of a handle on things. Whereas the Comp is really too big and a lot of bullying goes on.

tinierclanger · 05/02/2021 07:19

Just to pick up your point about distance, it’s not necessarily bad to have a longish walk to school at that age. Gives them time to wake up in the morning/decompress on the way home with friends.

NiceTwin · 05/02/2021 07:24

@Racquelscottish

Nicetwin there is strong evidence that grammar school kids are, in general, from more middle-class /wealthy backgrounds. Of course there are exceptions on the individual level but the cohort of a grammar school is noticeably different to a non-selective school.
Maybe in certain parts of the country.

The grammar school in our county takes from one of the poorest area in the country, always comes up on 'those' lists.
There are 2 double deckers that go through that town, both full.

There really are all walks of life there.
Obviously I can't speak for London as I don't have to live there.

thecatfromjapan · 05/02/2021 07:47

Graveney is a comprehensive. And it's massive.
I'm guessing the other school is Chestnut Grove.
There's a world of difference between either and grammars.

I think you're over-thinking it. Let him take the wandsworth test, see if he gets a selective place at G, or a place at CG, and be positive about whichever he goes to.

G is far less uncommunicative than its reputation. It has a great Art department, Music is amazing, Drama pretty great. So it's also quite arty. Students are pretty empowered.

CG is also great.

I honestly think he'll be fine wherever he ends up.

Both schools now have catchments where housing is eye-wateringly expensive. But both catchments also contain social housing - so both schools have mixed intakes.

I'm always a little wry about people making the case that CG is a school where you're 'keeping it real', given that it's in Balham and has an Ofsted 'Outstsnding' rating.

Really, you have two good choices. That's lucky. It's a nice 'problem' to have.

AveEldon · 05/02/2021 07:47

@Racquelscottish I don't know what your other possible school is but do look at the size of the intake.

majororminor · 05/02/2021 08:00

I would be looking at how much impact the grammars have on the comp intake in your area. If the grammars take a pretty big proportion of the more academic kids in the area, then you may find that the comp doesn't have as much of a 'top set', and that your son doesn't find enough challenge or pace to keep him interested. If the grammars are relatively few and highly selective so that the comp is still a true 'comp' with a wide range of abilities, then this shouldn't be a problem. Also look at subject choice, particularly if your son is interested in a particular area such as languages. As for the culture of the schools, all you can do is visit and ask questions. It's very hard to judge things like bullying and happiness from the outside. Partly because some problems are easier to spot (eg big physical fights) but may be no more harmful than other, more insidious problems; and partly because the parents you talk to will have very individual experiences which may not have much bearing on what your child will experience.