London grammar school or state school

[Stokey]

DD1 (Y6) is on the waiting list for a north London grammar school. She'll almost certainly get a place. But I really don't know whether she should go there or not. Pros - it's a great school (79 on the attainment 8 score, 0.68 on progress 8), it will stretch her academically and it's mixed which I would prefer. Cons - it's around a 45 minute not very lovely journey either by bus or two trains, we don't know anyone else going there and DD1 isn't keen. We also haven't been able to look round.

The local girls school is rated outstanding, has pretty decent scores for a non-selective (55 on attainment 8, and 0.62 on progress 8) and is a 10 minute walk. It's definitely Dd1's preference and quite a few girls from her school will be going there, although none of her closest friends.

In a way it's a nice choice to have as they're both good options, but I'm genuinely unsure what to do. Part of me thinks it would be crazy to not take the opportunity to go to the grammar school. But another part of me thinks it's nice to go to your local school where your friends are close at hand. I went to a boarding school and never had "home" friends so it's something I feel I missed out on.

What would you do? How do you make a decision?

@Stokey how large is the local school, i.e., how many forms in each year? Do they set in most subjects or do they explicitly stream? If so, you might well find that the top set or stream is not very different from the student population at Latymer, particularly if the school's catchment area has a lot of affluent bits. Grammars being so scarce in London, lots of high ability kids stay local to avoid excessive journeys, as yours might do.

Also, if you haven't already looked at this, you can check what the P8 score is for high prior attainment students.

Latymer is a great school and we'd have gone for it had ds got in.

However, I was always uncertain about the length of journey. Ours would have been longer than 45 minutes all in. Are you absolutely certain it's 45 minutes? Almost any journey in London ends up being at least half an hour by the time you've got to the station/bus stop, waited, traffic etc. 45 minutes is doable. If you're being optimistic and it's more like an hour, however, that's different.

Oh and think back to why you did the Latymer exam in the first place. You must have been keen enough on the school to go through the palaver of applying and doing it and I'm presuming your dd did some prep.

I would go local, especially as your daughter isn't particularly keen on Latymer. Lockdown has made it brutally clear how hard it is when friends aren't nearby. Latymer is quite hands off and 'liberal' but it also has a lot of very focused, hard working /well supported or pushed kids and it doesn't always work out so well for those who don't fit that mould. The teaching itself is very variable and not always very supportive. Most of the kids get used to the journey, but some do find it very tiring, and when you have a teenager you realise there is a massive difference between leaving the house at 7.30 and 8.30, especially in winter - and coming home alone in the dark.

For what it's worth, my DC picked Latymer over the local option and the travel is 45-60 minutes each way. No regrets whatsoever, I have to say. The travel is part of the experience. DC enjoys the travel in the morning in particular - they're a bunch of (new) friends travelling together. The way back is harder cause DC just wants to be home then but still no regrets. The travel is more than a commute, there is also a big social element to it. It is also a great way to let the children grow and be become more independent.

Latymer is also more ethnically diverse than our local, something I personally rate highly. DC has mentioned that and says it makes subjects like RE more interesting.

I'm also biased towards co-ed, but I know the pros for girls with single sex.

I can also understand the arguments for a local school but I think it is important that whilst they are 11/12 when they start Yr7, they'll be adults when they leave. I'm happy that DC has made friends all over North London and is not stuck in the local bubble. But it all depends on the child - for DC the change was well needed to grow as a person.

Lastly, we reasoned like this - "If we say no to Latymer, that's it. We can't change back. If we start with Latymer and change our minds, the local option would still be possible, maybe with some bit of waiting."

Regardless of what you decide - good luck! It will be great in any case.

@LockdownParent I think our journey would be similar, but yes the saying No to Latymer point is a good one. Also good to hear about a DC enjoying their time there and the sociable journey.
@PatienceVirtue as you say it's good to keep in mind why we applied. We had a couple of friends who were applying, who sadly didn't get in, & thought DD was capable. We didn't do masses of prep but she did have a tutor for about 3 months from June once we realised the Maths paper was covering stuff she had never done before. I do know she'll be fine academically wherever she goes, but maybe Latymer is the difference between mostly 8s & 9s and mostly 7s & 8s. How much that matters in the grand scheme of things I don't know!
The local school is pretty big, 8 form entry, also ethnically diverse. They stream in Maths from Y7 while I believe Latymer doesn't start till Y9 - but obviously a very different cohort.

If both of the schools seem good then surely the one 10 minutes down the road is the better option? Commuting is no fun for kids and it will definitely zap her quality of life. 45 minutes each way is a lot for a kid to do for the whole of secondary school. I'd understand if it was the only good option but it sounds like there isn't that much in it anyway!

She will have a social circle much closer to home with the local option, too - which is really just as important as the academic side.

If you put the grammar school first on your CAF and she qualifies for a place, you won't have a decision to make as you will no longer be considered for a place at your second choice school as you will be offered your first choice.

but maybe Latymer is the difference between mostly 8s & 9s and mostly 7s & 8s.

Highly unlikely to make that amount of difference, if any at all.

A comprehensive doing well will have good teaching, the curriculum is the same - selective schools largely reflect the cohort. Kent, a county with a full grammar system, has overall the same results as comparable LAs, so the effect of high ability students being in grammars makes no difference to the bigger picture.

If your local school was underperforming and with behaviour issues then choosing a school where students have pro-actively chosen to go for academic reasons would ensure a steadier cohort.

But in truth, you seem to be in a win-win position.

@Stokey I forgot to say that former students that I've spoken to have mentioned the travel as one of the highlights of their time at Latymer.

However, our DC wanted Latymer more than the local school, whereas for your DD it is the opposite. And DC was not worried about not knowing anyone - "I'll make friends. I'm not the only one not knowing anyone" was DC's attitude. Now in lockdown, not being able to go into school is something that DC misses despite the travel. It is an amazing school (I am not taking about the grades but the ethos, leadership, communityetc), and for our DC, worth the travel.

Is the girls school green school? I only ask as I know lots of stokey families priced out of the area move around there. If it is, I understand your predicament. The traffic around there is a nightmare and worth thinking about. Although Latymer is diverse, the other school is much more so, so it will be a different experience. We very nearly went there but I personally don't think my DD could deal with the cattiness of girls schools. Latymer kids tend to be more comfortable travelling around London too as their friends are all over the place. I think I would try Latymer personally and than try and move her if it doesn't work out. She can easily have a travel buddy half way.

Yes it is @foxesandsquirrels. I was almost tempted to put one of the mixed comps ahead of it as they are decent too and kids seem pretty happy there. But the girls school seemed a better fit academically.

@Hersetta427 we have put the grammar school first but we won't get a place on offer day as she's not in the top 190 kids. But some of those would have applied to other schools so will turn down the places, so she'll probably get a place some time during the summer term.

Not meaning to miss the point, but the grammar is also a state school, right? I'm asking because this isn't the first time I've seen grammars described in this way i.e. as though they're not state schools. Am I missing something here?

I think local may be best - it is a pain for kids to live far apart from their friends. I'm a Latymerian myself and though my friends came from a fairly wide range of areas I gather it's even more spread out now.

We decided against DD sitting for it as the journey from where we are is too much.

@Stokey ok, well buildings wise they are very very similar. Really nice Victorian feel and well looked after buildings. I would even say girls school is nicer as their budget is a bit bigger and they have the really nice outdoor theatre style seating. It has a very private school feel.
I think I would still go for Latymer if she gets a space though. Transport wise I would go as far as taking the day off school when schools go back and doing the journey with her to see if this is something she can handle and to see how traffic would be on the really busy road near green school. The competition at Latymer was massive this year and if she is clever enough to get in, she will likely coast at state in KS3. The states often ramp things up in KS4 and grades increase but they do often do less subjects. Not everyone wants to do more though so that's not necessary a pro for Latymer. The state also has no chance of rivaling Latymer in extra curriculars. Speaking of those, you will need to worry about lifts and picking her up due to the area, but this also has the positive of you getting to know way more parents than you would do at a normal secondary. Some people hate the idea of this.
The massive pro to green school is she would be able to have a lovely summer in the park nearby with her mates after school and everyone is pretty local. We weren't impressed with the local mixed aside from the church one which we had no chance of getting in.

@SpudsandGravy they are state schools but are selective. So in reality the application process is quite different, separate exams etc, and you get a different set of students there than you would at a regular state school as they have to meet the entrance criteria. And there is generally a much wider catchment than a state school. But they b follow the same curriculum as a state school, and as far as I know, class sizes are similar.

Thanks @foxesandsquirrels, it's good advice. I will definitely try the journey with her to see what is like once that is an option again. I think that will be a deciding factor. Yes the girls school really does have a lovely building and grounds.

Grammar schools are state schools
Comprehensive schools are state schools

They are funded in the same way.

It is confusing to refer to 'grammar' and 'state' schools when referring to two types of state school.

But just to create further confusion, some private schools are called "ABCD Grammar" because they kept the name when they went private to avoid going comprehensive in the 1970s.

Stokey, she may well get a place on offer day even if not in the top 190 due to the out of catchment, those who listed other schools higher etc. Last year I think those in the top 380 received places on offer day and down into the 400s over summer.
So if it is listed 1st, may well be what she is offered.
Both schools sound good, so you are in a fortunate position.
I think most DC adjust to the travel quickly and manage to stay in touch with local friends too.

[quote Stokey]@SpudsandGravy they are state schools but are selective. So in reality the application process is quite different, separate exams etc, and you get a different set of students there than you would at a regular state school as they have to meet the entrance criteria. And there is generally a much wider catchment than a state school. But they b follow the same curriculum as a state school, and as far as I know, class sizes are similar.[/quote]

Thanks Stokey. I do understand - I went to a grammar school myself - and so I've been surprised to see people referring to them recently as though they're not state schools. I just wondered why.

If she has good local friends from Primary then it’s not unbeneficial for her to have two sets of friends and it is a good balance. My DD (no 2) has a 50 minute bus journey to a better State (admittedly country roads, not London traffic). If it’s a school they are sold on it’s not the end of the Earth, if not then the journey, delays and getting up early (both you and her!) is a grind. TBH it’s a grind anyway, particularly when you add in getting home very late after after school clubs then having to do homework.

My DD wanted this school so our job was easier, less easy for you I think! I’m not ant all girls and I’ve noticed a difference in our DD2 from her Primary Year 6 where there was some in fighting about boys to now which has disappeared at her all girls school. I do think all girls schools can nurture women as well - DD2s has a strong pro women stance, houses named after women of achievement, slogans everywhere which does appeal! Not that going to all girls does protect them against relationship dramas as we found out with DD1 who is LGBT.

I agree with giving the grammar a shot - she has done the exam, she won’t be the only one there by any means not knowing anyone, she will make new friends and 45 minutes is not the end of the world! If it’s not working though, as others have said you do have a great local option.

@SpudsandGravy I think this is one of the few posts I've seen it called grammar and state. Normally it's grammar and comp. But I think it's pretty obvious what the OP means.

@SpudsandGravy I think this is one of the few posts I've seen it called grammar and state. Normally it's grammar and comp. But I think it's pretty obvious what the OP means.

I know a few girls who moved from the green school to Bremer as they didn't find it very inspiring re: extra curricular and supporting female empowerment.
Latymer has amazing facilities and extra curricular opportunities, but the downside is that journey and having your social life very spread out.

@gooseygooseywanderingfree Me too. Our friends DD moved to Bremer in Y9 from green school. She's in Y11 now and even with covid stuff she's much happier there.