Grammar vs Private

[Motherly00]

Hello

Wanted to get advice from parents who have been offered a place at Grammar, but also still waiting on Private places. In a similar position, and yet struggling to come to a decision. Assume levels of education are the same, might it be the facilities, that win through? Distance in our case is the same. Odd, as assumed we would go grammar (as its free) but there's a niggling feeling Private might win out on some aspects. Would love any guidance for those who have had this query.

Surely there has to be a discernible advantage that prompts one to choose an independent school? You haven't indicated any, so what would you be paying for?

If you're desperate for an independent option, can you not find a school that is appreciably better than the grammar school?

We were in that position six years ago - we chose the independent for Dd. However it was nearer plus we had a large bursary. Ds didn’t get an independent school place so he went to grammar and Dd is now at (a different) grammar for sixth form.

I can compare our independent and grammar schools but obviously yours may be different. Facilities were certainly better, and extra-curricular opportunities, trips, chances to go off curriculum etc. This only really benefited Dd for years 7-9 though - years 10-11 were full on stressy GCSE focused. There was a lot of extra support offered - drop in sessions, sixth form mentors in Maths and languages in the younger years etc. I guess that may result in slightly higher grades? My Dd wasn’t keen on being made to do extra though in her lunch hours!

Whether the extras are worth the fees I’m not sure. You also need to think about the slightly different clientele.

We chose private boarding over grammar.

The reasons being that DD fitted the boarding better. The school was 1/3 the size which resulted in girls getting every opportunity to take part in what they enjoyed without rationing. So music, drama, sport, school trips and after school clubs were mostly available. It wasn’t all about facilities. It was about a broader education and space to explore what made her tick and develop as a person.

She would also have friends available for social activities. That was never possible at primary school where parents dictated social events for DC.

The academics were about the same but classes were half the size and we felt the ethos of the school was better suited to her personality. DD was happy to have two homes and thrived.

The boarding school was noticeably free of pushy parents! I think most parents were secure that DDs would be happy whatever their educational outcomes. The grammars here are full of angst ridden parents. No one was ultra competitive for their DDs and parents were welcomed into the school on a very regular basis. More than at the grammar she would have attended. So for us it was far more than academics and facilities. It was where DD belonged.

If the private school isn’t offering far more in terms of breadth and depth of education and opportunities, I would question what you are paying for. Happiness at school is important though.

Can only give you one perspective, as we chose independent so have never experienced grammar. The single biggest determining factor for us was that we wanted coed, and there were no coed grammar options. Of course that's a very individual choice, but an all boys school just didn't feel right for DS. Otherwise, facilities and extra curricular provision are superb, but I know they're very good at lots of the grammar options too. The things that seem to us to be better (and I say seem because this can only be based on reports from friends with kids in grammars, not our own experience) are roughly: smaller classes particularly in the lower years; more inclusive sport (lots of competitive sport in multiple sports at all levels, not just for the top couple of teams); even less disruptive behaviour (not that there's much in either setting); greater resource in terms of staff time as mentioned by others, as well as books, subscriptions etc; even better music and drama facilities, with more time available for 'softer' subjects (longer school day, plus multiple clubs before school, at lunchtime and after school); less narrow focus on assessment and results, and a more open curriculum, particularly in the younger years (no constant grades, tests and 'flightpaths'); greater stability of more niche subjects. Harder to define, there is also a sense that the school is a one stop shop - that it's the school's responsibility not only to provide everything your child might need for a rounded education but also to make sure that they're taking advantage of it (of course, because that's what you're paying for) - so it's perhaps harder for a pupil to slip unnoticed through their school years so long as they're getting the grades. Perhaps less parental angst, as a PP said? I don't know, but it certainly feels incredibly hands-off after the ghastly angsty and competitive parenting around the 11+ (but quite possibly any secondary school feels like that).

Whether all those things are worth the money is another question. It depends on your child and your alternatives. We have a significant bursary which perhaps makes it an easier choice.

Oh, and one other thing I didn't mention is specialist teaching. In three years, I can only remember one occasion when DS has had a cover lesson taught by a non subject specialist, including during Covid. There is (for very obvious reasons) much less of the sense of precariousness that you can get in the state sector (we certainly experienced it at primary) - that a resignation or a long term sickness could leave a hole in the staffing or the budget that would be hard to repair. Again, this is very school-dependent - plenty of independent schools are living on the financial edge.

There's no general rule, it depends on the specific pair of schools, and the individual child.
We went for the grammar - it got better results than the best Indy in our area, and DD preferred it. It suited her extremely well.

Please chose private if you can afford it and free up a grammar place for kids who really really need it.

And who won't get an option of private school..

In our grammar area, it’s inevitable the independent day schools don’t get the results that the grammars do. However plenty of bright enough dc don’t get to the grammars so the independent school results are pretty good. However we didn’t want this for DD who got 140/141 in the grammar selection test. So we chose boarding and spent our own money.

In our area, the 2 best independent schools get even better results than the grammars and are just as selective - they're all part of the same foundation. So there's probably not as much difference between the grammars and independents as in some areas (and certainly not if you're looking at boarding schools).

Parents of bright dcs who cannot afford private can apply for a bursary. These are widely available but some parents prefer state.

Any child that doesn’t take up a grammar space won’t be necessarily replaced by a poorer dc. Where I live it is very possible it would be one from the local independent schools who have just missed out and qualifies on admission criteria. You simply cannot say a grammar space equals poorer dc will be destined to go there if places are freed up. It is often a parent who was prepared to pay to avoid the secondary moderns. Here, the grammar parents are well enough off (in many cases) but if they have several children they recognise fees for all three or four DC are a lot of money and, as I explained, the private schools don’t match the grammars for results. The better off with clever dc prefer the grammars. The private school pupils are mostly dc who don’t have the pass mark. However at review and appeal, these dc might get a grammar place but these spaces are allocated according to entry criteria, not poverty.

Boarding is a different world from the local private schools. Most people I know who want boarding never wanted a grammar place anyway. They often take the teats though which give a steer towards possible schools at 13 plus. Eton vs Stowe for example.

We have experience of both. Private is definitely nicer, not necessarily better. It depends on the schools in question and whether you can afford it or think it's value for money for your family. We are in the 'middle'. We can afford it out of our salaries, but it would leave us exposed if anything went wrong. For people with inheritance, big bonuses etc, it may be a different matter.

Of course a grammar is not going to compete with the facilities of the independent as you pay for this, but what it offers is more than enough and we can supplement outside , although haven't felt the need to do this yet. With the private you get the personal touch and a service . Again, you are paying for this. We have a self motivated child who gets enough extra curricular that they are interested in at the grammar and is happy.

To sum it up, with private families pay for the ' lifestyle', with a grammar you get excellent education for free.

Private is definitely nicer, not necessarily better.

I'm not at all convinced the private would have been significantly nicer than DDs GS. Many of the extra facilities were the types of thing we could easily provide for ourselves as a family, better, with a small proportion of the money we weren't having to use for fees.

It depends so much on the schools, just because it's fee paying, it doesn't mean it's a good school or suited to your child. We did comp and boarding, I do recommend boarding for 6th form, worked really well

Depends on the schools and the child. In the same position we chose Private for the following reasons
Proximity
Facilities
Class size
Sibling unlikely to get a Grammar place
DDs preference

I think it's true as a PP said that you're partly paying for a 'lifestyle' with private, but that's not necessarily as superficial or as snobby as it sounds. In our case, we aren't very sociable and we have zero interest in mixing with the 'right' people or joining the dinner party circuit (assuming it exists, I wouldn't know!). However, other aspects of the 'lifestyle' are really valuable to us. I love the fact that we (as a family) can use the school pool and other facilities. I love that there's all sorts of high quality cultural stuff going on (concerts, theatre, lectures etc) that I can go to at very low cost and without travelling far. As a working parent with quite an inflexible job, I love that, when necessary, my son can effectively stay at school from 7-7, get transported about, and be fed breakfast, lunch and dinner (I don't often take advantage of this, but it's incredibly useful on occasion and can make a big difference to his ability to participate in things like sports matches and plays without me having to take time off work). It comes at a cost (reduced via bursary) but it enables me to work in a job that I love, without having to juggle pick-ups and mad dashes here and there. Of course I recognise that it's a privilege to be able to afford that lifestyle, but it's not (as people sometimes assume) all about wanting to buy into a particular social circle.

Following on from what I said earlier, I've had a think about the 'nicer' comment above and I would agree. Dd said last night that she was really missing her old (independent) school. I think it's things like: closer relationships with staff, who are there for one to one support whenever needed; more expansive grounds and facilities which make lunchtimes and breaks more pleasant, combined with longer breaks too - dd now spends her half hour lunch hour crowded round a table in the common room; because they're packed in, they've ended up having 'fixed' seats and areas, which has resulted in some stress in terms of which group to attach herself to. By contrast she used to spend her long lunch hours and breaktimes either doing clubs such as dance or cross country (admittedly, covid has put paid to any extra curricular at the grammar) or roaming the grounds, singing with friends in a music practice room, doing dance moves in the dance studio etc. She could spend time with different people each day and it was lovely. She was also able to stay after school until 6 if she wanted - which was extra social time.

None of this is 'must have' at all! And we had a large bursary which makes a big difference.

On the flip side, dd is happier in the more 'normal' environment of a state school. Private school is a bit of a bubble socially.

I went to our local grammar school, my kids go to our local private school (partly as we're just the wrong side of the county boundary for the grammar school so would have had to move).

Like many parents, we do reflect on whether we make the right decision, particularly when the fee bill lands on our doormat. Academically, our local grammar schools get excellent results. I'd have no concerns there.

Our school has fantastic facilities, which are beyond those of the local grammars (which we see at various sports sessions and matches). They also put out 4-5 teams at each age group for the major sports. My kids both love sport so make good use of school facilities. If they were less interested in school extracurricular activities whether sport, drama or whatever, (not a criticism, some kids have interests elsewhere), I'd pick the grammar as I wouldn't feel they were getting value for money in the same way.

For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not bashing grammar schools in any way; I loved mine. Equally, state schools also have some excellent sports teams, dramatic productions etc. Simply that I view our investment in school fees as principally about the extra facilities, not better exam results or more intangible factors.

Yes, it’s all about whether you think that is worth the money. When we came to it, and looked at the two options side by side (and we have experience of private already), we couldn’t justify the money (around £150k for 7 years). The grammar school has enough music and enough of the right sport. The big class sizes are only for the early years and thin out for GCSEs. Again, if we had lots of money it may have been a different story, but I still may have thought £150k could be spent on something else. Who knows!

I think this is the most polite state vs private thread I've ever seen on MN

Thank you - lots of great intel.

Choose the grammar and use the money for a house deposit.

in the old days, grammars used to get more funding per head than comps (and of course do o levels etc rather than CSEs or nothing). these days, grammars segregate for segregation's sake, there's no difference in the actual offering.

private schools' budget per head is incomparably higher than any state school, that's the difference.