grammar or private school

[user890890340]

Our DS9 is in Year 4 and will be going to Year 5 next month. He's currently is a state primary school, but we're thinking of sending him to a grammar school for secondary or a private school if he manages to get a scholarship and it becomes affordable (we can't really afford the full fees for a private). There are no private/grammar schools in our area so we'll likely have to move.

Any tips/advice from someone who has been in a similar position. What should I do to prepare him for a grammar/private school test especially when we don't know which one he might get into and where we might have to move (we're in London btw). It's all so confusing because for grammar schools you have to be living in the area I think....

The head of an Oxford college said in The Sunday Times today that they had made 83% of their offers to state school children this year, many of whom have seen their grades downgraded. The college are honouring all original offers, however.

In the same article, however, there is the story of a student from a state school who had been predicted a three A*, but got awarded less so has (so far) missed out on her place at Cambridge.

Sorry, OP, have digressed!

OP, I think it's clear you can't really afford private school without some sacrifices, and that would then raise the question of what to do for your younger child. A grammar school will be just as good (if not better) academically as a private school; it just may not have all the sports/music etc (which you can compensate for out of school if need be), or such small classes, but if your DS is bright that won't matter. The London grammar application process sounds a bit hairy. Do you and your DP work in London? If you are dead set on grammar school I would move to Kent where there are plenty of grammars, ranging from super-selective through to reasonably selective - all of which would suit an able boy well. Somewhere like Tonbridge or Tunbridge Wells would give you a few options. Otherwise, do bear in mind that most comps these days are actually good, and kids tend to be in sets, so if your DS is able he will be with like-minded kids for learning anyway. I have two brightish boys in a state comp doing just fine, and although I went to a state grammar myself I don't think my boys are missing out.

How much do you know about your most local state secondary schools? What are their results like? Just because an area doesn't have grammar schools, doesn't mean children from those areas don't achieve highly. Every area has exceptionally bright children who do brilliantly at non-selective state schools and East London is well known for having some extremely high-performing sixth forms such as Brampton Manor, and the LAE in Stratford. I would encourage you to look carefully at the state schools in your wider area before planning to move house, maybe get in touch with some and ask what they put in place to support/stretch pupils who are very academic e.g. at DD1's London comprehensive (she passed the 11+ without any tutoring and had a guaranteed grammar place but turned it down in favour of a more local comprehensive) those pupils are identified and given additional opportunities such as a nurturing doctors programme, lots of connections with and visits to Oxbridge colleges etc. Had she attended a grammar, she may have been less likely to be targeted for these but also benefits from being in smaller top sets and being taught by teachers whose skill includes excellent behaviour management, a passion for raising aspirations and attainment and the ability to tailor teaching according to the differing levels of the set. I'm not saying teachers in the grammar/independent sector don't also have these skills (DH teaches at one such setting) but that there are different pressures or priorities.

A bright, keen, boy who likes reading at age 9 may be the type of child who wants to prepare for the 11+ tests at Ilford County High or Latymer (check to see if your postcode puts you in the inner area) but if you feel you'll need to pay for him to be tutored in order to access those tests, will that mean the financial commitment excludes other opportunities such as learning a musical instrument to a high level (with associated costs such as membership of the NCO or attending a junior conservatoire being quite high), or training in a niche sport such as fencing?

As others said, it can be easier to get in less competitive private school with scholarship + bursary than grammar. However, in many cases, families have to pay half of tuition fees and additional costs such as uniform, trip etc. I have never heard that less competitive schools offer full scholarship.

Then, you should think about the reason why you want to send your academic DS to less academic (reasonably academic?) private school. DC1 attends top 20 school but DC2 goes to academically less competitive school (it's reasonably academic as it is still top 100) with scholarship (just 5%). We send him there because we like the ethos and it offers lots of extra curriculum which he is interested in and we believe it suits him the best. But if your reason is just academic aspect, you can also find good comprehensive schools without squeezing your finance.

I am not sure how much you can afford but even if you success to receive bursary, you still have to do some sacrifice and you need to think about younger child.

It would be really important to think why you consider private along with grammar. And I still think getting in top indies with scholarship and bursary is very competitive. I know a boy from my DC's prep who passed super selective grammar but ended up waiting list at top private. (he applied for bursary)

Se13 Mummy - are there good comprehensives in se13, se12, SE3, or SE10 ?

I didn't think the comprehensives were very good in those postcodes but I would be happy to be corrected?

@snowbam, yes!

St Ursula's is SE10, Prendergast is SE4 (but a stone's throw from the centre of Lewisham) and both have very good reputations. Thomas Tallis is SE3 and very popular as is Haberdasher Askes, Hatcham (SE14 as it's in New Cross). All are heavily oversubscribed. There are plenty of other secondaries in the area at which students do incredibly well, coming out with strings of grade 7-9s at GCSE followed by A* and A at A-level. I know teens who've finished at John Roan, Eltham Hill, Sydenham and Trinity with GCSE results equally as impressive as their old primary school peers who travelled out to the grammar schools of Bexley or Dartford.

If you're in Waltham Forest then you're in the catchment for Latymer and Ilford County (which is a boys school) so you dint need to move to access a grammar.

Most children will begin tutoring in year 5, so some do start earlier, and some don't do any, they just use practice papers.

Thank you so much se13Mummy I was sworn off John Roan and Thomas Tallis due to their poor results but I suppose I should take a look as we want to move Greenwich / Blackheath way.

I may start another thread about secondaries across Blackheath and Greenwich.

@snowbam

I may start another thread about secondaries across Blackheath and Greenwich.

Please, do! Also, very interested!

OP, if you're interested in the Sutton Grammars, they don't do non-verbal
reasoning. It could be argued that a couple of the English questions each year are like verbal reasoning, but the first round is Maths and English multiple choice and the second round (for Sutton Grammar and Wilson's) is open answer maths and a written piece for English. Reading lots and being strong in English is a huge advantage - most applicants that pass the first round will be very strong in Maths and it's often the English that makes a difference in the second round because there's a bigger range of ability.

Wilson's has no catchment in its admissions policy; Sutton Grammar and Wallington Boys have in-borough and out-of-borough places. Lots of people get the place and then move into the area. Non-grammar options in Sutton are also great if you do move first.

Year 5 is definitely not too late to start preparing. And if you have the confidence, the time and a DC that responds well to you, you don't need to hire a tutor, but I understand the pressure to when you feel like everyone else is!

Thanks very much for all the very helpful responses.

We've been doing some talking and research over the weekend and here's a short update:

• we can probably afford a private school but it would mean we're stretching finances to an extent that we'd be pretty uncomfortable (it's a lot of money and for an extended period of time), so would really prefer not to have to go down that route. To be honest, I wasn't too keen on private but DH feels he might be letting his kids down if he can't give them a top quality education and his colleagues children are all at Eton/St-Pauls etc.

• we've come up with a shortlist of grammar schools to target, we're only in the catchment for one grammar school (Illford County but even that is far so we will likely still have to move) so we're only looking at schools that don't require you to be in the catchment area. Then the plan is to look through the entry requirements, since I know that they all seem to have different requirements. I really like the look of Queen Elizabeth in Barnet but since it's considered among the best schools in the country it's likely extremely competitive to get in.

• I've ordered the Bond books and have started working with DS on some past papers. DS does have a tutor who has been tutoring him for several years (just one hour a week so nothing substantial though during lockdown we increased it to two hours) but this was just generally working on pushing him to his abilities in maths and english since that doesn't really happen at his school. She's the one who told us about grammar schools several years ago and told us we should try to get him into one but to be honest at the time so much other stuff was going on and this felt like such a long time away that we didn't act on it. She said she usually starts working with kids from Year 3 but that DS should be able to catch up if he does regular practise at home every day.

It’s a great sign that your tutor things that your son is grammar material. It does sound like he’s up to speed on school work and improving exam technique can definitely be done in time.

If you're happy to move further east, the Essex 11+ is based on the Maths and English national curriculum so the idea is there is no extra content to learn. DC do need to look over the exam style and check they've covered everything in school but the aim is that it doesn't exclude non - tutored children as much.

CSSE is the exam board. It covers the grammars in Southend (2 boys' and 2 girls' schools) and Colchester plus the boys' school in Chelmsford. All use the exam result & catchment areas slightly differently. The Southend schools are the easiest to get in to and being within certain postcodes gives you the best chance.

I would pick your target school before starting to study as they all have different exams. The elevenplusexams forum is really informative (but a bit scary).

Do you live near a comprehensive you like then? Since your plan seems to be to apply for ‘superselectives” you’ll also need a v good plan B.

OP are you certain you're not in the catchment for Latymer?

Have you visited Forest School in Snaresbrook/Wanstead? It's an excellent private school with outstanding sports facilities. My kids would go there if we could afford it!

yes we checked we're not in the catchment for Latymer.

As for Forest School, if we continue to stay where we are that is probably the nearest private school from us, but again the fees would be an issue and would generally make us very financially tight.

We've made a list of schools that don't require you to be in the catchment area and plan is to try to aim for one that has a very good comprehensive nearby. We're prepared to move to another area, so house prices etc will also have to factor in. Gosh, so many things to consider.

The work needed for the 11+ is a LOT, I've found it pretty overwhelming just looking through it and we only have a year in which to get DS up to speed. A year sounds like a lot but given that school is restarting soon it's not going to be easy to fit it in around school timings. Going to start another thread on 11+. I've had a quick look at the 11plusforum and though I'm sure it's very informative I've found it quite daunting for now. Might be brave to go on there in a few months.

I think you need to factor in your youngest - if you send the oldest private you need to be able to do the same for the youngest, and it doesn’t sound like you can. How clever is your child - where does he rank in his year group?

Yes, you're right. Youngest is still a long way from secondary (8 yr gap between the two) so it may be that our financial circumstances have improved by then and we can afford it but right now it would put a significant strain to send oldest to private.
Ranked in top 5 of school year but this is at state school. Eager to learn though and generally enthusiastic and motivated to do so - though this prep for 11+ might beat that out of him

Thing is, it’s not a ‘traditional’ 11+, it’s for v highly selective schools. Competition is such that most applicants (DC doing well and with parents helping or tutoring) don’t get in.

There’s a big price premium for housing near popular comprehensives, so if you’re going to pay that, may as well use the schools!

Eager to learn though and generally enthusiastic and motivated to do so - though this prep for 11+ might beat that out of him.

I wouldn’t worry. Kids that love learning will love prepping for exams as long as the tutor is good.

If he is bright enough to secure a significant academic scholarship at a private school then he will be bright enough for a grammar. I have experience of both private and single sex and co-Ed grammars - I recommend a co-Ed grammar.

Scholarships are rare now - schools are going instead for means tested bursaries so your income will be heavily scrutinised. I know for one who omitted to tell a school about an inheritance and was robbed in by and angry 'friend'!