grammar or private school

[user890890340]

Our DS9 is in Year 4 and will be going to Year 5 next month. He's currently is a state primary school, but we're thinking of sending him to a grammar school for secondary or a private school if he manages to get a scholarship and it becomes affordable (we can't really afford the full fees for a private). There are no private/grammar schools in our area so we'll likely have to move.

Any tips/advice from someone who has been in a similar position. What should I do to prepare him for a grammar/private school test especially when we don't know which one he might get into and where we might have to move (we're in London btw). It's all so confusing because for grammar schools you have to be living in the area I think....

I agree with Zodlebud as well. Every time I see a thread about grammar schools on mumsnet I thank my lucky stars that we don't live in a grammar school area. DD was lucky enough to go to a good comprehensive school, did very well at GCSE and exceptionally well at A level, and is now at a good university.

I live in a grammar area (Kent). In my town there is

a mixed grammar,
a boys grammar, (super-selective so even if you pass the 11+ your grades may not be high enough to qualify)
a girls grammar school
a couple of faith schools (they are oversubscribed, you need to attend church to be guaranteed a place). One of these has a grammar stream, not tbsure about the other.
Local academy/comprehensive schools - they also have a grammar stream for pupils that are able.
Then several private schools.

I wouldn't necessarily move with a specific grammar in mind - what happens if your dc doesn't pass the 11+ and you've based your whole house move on him getting in? That's a lot of pressure on him.

Ok so tutoring will not mean your child won't keep up in a grammar, there is research to show that does not happen.

But really check your current state school.
My child has been tutored by an excellent maths tutor who helpfully explained to me that my year 5 child had not been taught what he would have expected a year 5 child to learn.

So ... we have had to go through so much work just to cover what should have been covered. And yes, we were always told our child was brilliant and near the top of the class. I am finding the same for English and grammar type questions.

Also private schools prep much more for the 11 plus. I would not discount the advantage that a child in a private school has over a state school child at primary level. Ofcourse there are brilliant primary state schools but anectodally private schools have really been ahead of the curve when it comes to lock down so I think the gap will be wide both this year and next.

Really check the requirements, if you are applying out of area the competition is very tough and it is also tough in area.

Also consider your child and how they learn. My child is very bright but he is not quick and feels pressure. I am not sure I will even let him sit 11-plus as I am not sure I want to speech coach him.

You have had a lot of good replies already.

Do not underestimate the work involved to get a grammar place. Nor the cost of tutoring.

You also need to really familiarise yourself with the tests and layout etc

Personally I have found people lie about not being tutored. Yes I hear the phrase well of the kid needs tutoring they should not be in a grammar.. from my friend whose child goes to exclusive private prep that has extra sessions like speed maths and maths clubs after school..

Also it is a good idea to try get from you school the standardised test scores of your child.

Good luck.

I find the whole system deeply unfair.

Round where I live yep the tutoring starts at year 3 softly and ramps up in year 4 and 5.. and some people have a maths and English tutor and then do holiday courses all the way through year 4 and 5.

What strikes me is that you don't say much about your child. I find this is quite often the case in posts about grammar schools. You really need to be taking your own child as your starting point and looking at what will suit him. If he's a naturally very able child with a genuine enjoyment of academic work, then it may well be that a grammar school would suit him down to the ground. If this is the case, then you haven't left it too late. You really shouldn't need more than a year of tutoring to give a very able child an excellent chance of getting a grammar school place (I'm talking about in the full grammar counties like Kent and Bucks, not the crazily competitive London grammars).

But if your child is not this type - if he is academically mid-table and/or doesn't have a thirst for learning, then grammar just isn't the right route. IME a lot of the trend towards tutoring from Year 2 or 3 is basically to get children into grammars who really won't suit a grammar place (again, I mean in the big grammar counties). Often this is unsuccessful (as the child still doesn't pass) or the child ends up unhappy at their school. But parents who are very keen for their child to attend a 'good' school often latch onto grammars as the best solution, regardless of the suitability for their child.

If your child is in the first category, then you need to pick an area pretty sharpish so that you can prepare for the right kind of test. You also need to look really carefully at the non-grammar options in case he doesn't pass, as the good schools can be harder to get into than the grammars!

If he's in the second category, then, given you have the flexibility to move, you would be much better off steering clear of the grammar school counties altogether and moving somewhere where the comprehensives are really good.

Finally, whether private is an option will depend on your finances. As others have said, scholarships are usually only worth around 10% of the fee, so they're really more a badge of honour than a real financial support. But if you're eligible for a bursary then you could get lots of financial help. You need to look at the bursary criteria on school websites and see whether you might be eligible.

Personally I wouldn't go for tutoring-it can be very costly. I would get him either cgp or bond 11+ practice books. You can normally get some past exams either from the school or consortium/trust it's part of, which would be good to use for practice once your dad has covered everything in the exams. If it's not practical for you to move then maybe you could try for a super selective grammar place but be warned- competition for places there is very fierce as they often have a huge cross counties catchment area or none at all, and have little or no admissions criteria apart from the child's test score. Not many private schools will actually give you the full scholarship-they will most likely give you a bursary or take off a part of the fee.

Ds, not dad!

Could you give us more information of you DS? Otherwise, you may just get similar replies.

You already have good advise about grammar, so I will focus on private sector.

My children did private school 11+ from prep school. Getting scholarship at academically competitive school is extremely hard. One of my children receives 40% scholarship without bursary but it is music. I have two schools which offer similar amount of reduction by music scholarship in London but never heard it for academic scholarship. You may need bursary but it is really uncertain if your DS can get it. On website, schools state equal opportunities and bursary application does not bother exam result but who knows?

Also your DS has to compete against children from prep schools. The exam format of private is varied and often different from grammar. My children were at non selective prep school but even though children start preparation at school from Year 3. Children (especially from top set) participate in lots of science, maths, writing and speech competitions, maths challenge every year, do comprehension and maths clubs, along with lots of extra curriculum to top up their school reports. If your DS has ability to get in top grammar schools, he has a good chance to get in top private schools but academic scholarship is another level.

If your DS is exceptionally able, I will let him try both private and grammar but otherwise I will let him just stick to grammar by moving to an area where has good comprehensive schools. 1 year is too short to start prep for both grammar and scholarship at private.

Agree with PPs. The outer london grammars are super selective, so a long shot. scholarships to private schools with decent fees discount also v competitive.

In your situation, if DC was academic and had other reasons to move further out (eg housing) would move to a ‘full’ grammar area, eg Kent. Or v close to a popular comprehensive somewhere you’d like to live and can afford.

If your DS has ability to get in top grammar schools, he has a good chance to get in top private schools but academic scholarship is another level.

In my experience it’s the other way round, definitely easier to get into a top indie than a super selective grammar/get an out of catchment place.

I'd steer away from private if you can't afford it. There are masses of additional costs from uniform to school trips. It can add up to £1000s across the years.

DC1 is very bright. She applied for 4 private exam entry -schools and passed all the exams. She sat and applied for one state grammar school exam -and passed the exam.
The grammar school is in a different county and she travels over an hour each way on the bus to get there -but she wanted it.
DC2 has the choice of exam and applying for the same state grammar - if they pass the exam in a few years. If they don't -we will relocate to an area with both a good private school and 4 outstanding secondary schools -needs must.

@JoJoSM2

If your DS has ability to get in top grammar schools, he has a good chance to get in top private schools but academic scholarship is another level.

In my experience it’s the other way round, definitely easier to get into a top indie than a super selective grammar/get an out of catchment place.

I agree. Far easier to get into private than a state selective grammar. For DC1 -over 20 applications for 1 place.

Also agree about this. I think academic scholarships are often used as a sweetener to encourage parents to choose a particular school. Some schools offer quite a lot of them, precisely because they're not worth lots of money. I agree that the very few scholarships with significant fee reductions are a different kettle of fish, and probably very competitive. DS got an academic scholarship from a state primary with under a year's prep, and I'm not saying he didn't do really well, but I'm under no illusions that it was a genuinely remarkable achievement. He's just a really able kid, and hadn't benefitted from being tutored to death, and the school probably recognised his potential and wanted to encourage him to go there rather than take the grammar place.

Thanks very much for all the useful replies. I've had a pretty stressful weekend, looked through the test papers (especially verbal and nonverbal reasoning) and I found many of the questions non straightforward with some of the them completely ambiguous! (I asked 2 other adults, a lawyer and doctor and they both agreed that some of the questions are downright ambiguous and hard to do even for adults!).

DS is very inclined towards academics, reads lots etc so we think he would be a good fit for a grammar/private school. But I can see that the next year will be very stressful for me and him if we're going to go down the route of trying for a grammar school.

Hi OP, I don’t think you’ve left it too late for tutoring - we started my state primary daughter around Feb in year 5 with 1 hour maths and 1 hour English per week - stopping altogether over the summer holidays, and she got a place at super-selective grammar and the private schools she applied to - 1 with full academic scholarship of either 40 or 50% fee reduction. As PPs have said it is quite rare for schools to offer substantial fees reduction unless for bursary which is obviously means tested. All info would be on websites. I would say you need to target specific schools and ensure the tutoring is focussed on those exams (ideally with a recommended tutor who has experience of getting children through that exam), as they can be quite different and require different prep. Most, if not all, children will have been prepared, by either a tutor or a parent (no matter what people say) as they do need to learn exam technique and speed (for Tiffin that was essential) - but if they get in - unless they have been drilled for years and/or had a miserable few months prior to the exam of working for hours every day and through the holidays- they will do fine.

He sounds academic, so you have time.

Kingston Upon Thames would be a good bet in terms of area. Good state comprehensives, private and a grammar - Tiffin boys. Of private you have kingston grammar school (used to be a grammar school, hence the name - co ed) and Hampton - all boys. Both excellent. Tiffin (grammar) have changed their exam in the last few years, and have moved away from verbal and non verbal only to maths and English, thereby matching the private school exams (although they do throw a few of verbal and non verbal questions into the paper, but nothing like before). This means you can use the same study for both state and private.

If your son is really academic, then he may have a chance of a scholarship at either of the private schools, but I doubt it would be more than 10-20% unless with a bursary.

From Kingston, you can also get to other private schools easily. Note Tiffin now have an inner catchment area of 10km ; there used to be no catchment.

From what you say, I think it sounds as if he has a good chance of entrance, without going OTT or panicking (too much..)

OP’s said she can’t afford private without a discount. While I agree with PPs that getting into private (on full fees) in / around London is easier than superselective grammars, getting a fees discount for academics will likely be v competitive.

I think it’s easier to get a scholarship+bursary if you look at schools that are more mixed ability rather than national Top 20 for GCSE results.

Agree JojoSm2. My DC got offered a scholarship at a top 5 independent and it was nominal. Ie for the prestige!

Prior to this A level fiasco I'd have said neither, find a good state school but now - private all the way. I am seriously thinking of moving my DC to a private school for year 11 and 6th form if I can rob a bank

A few DCs I knows applying for schools a little way out of London and out of the Top 20 (or even the Top 50) got more of a discount in fees for non bursary scholarships. Less competitive so they need to offer a bit more.

That's very interesting therhubharbbrothers before this, the wisdom amongst some was state schools to get better offers from universities. Agree - it's been an absolute fiasco!

@Allyoudoiscriticise

That's very interesting therhubharbbrothers before this, the wisdom amongst some was state schools to get better offers from universities. Agree - it's been an absolute fiasco!

Yes, I went down the state school route for my eldest for that reason amongst others. It worked for them, they got (but didn't need - gotta get that stealth boast in there!) a contextual offer because of their school and did well for themselves. Now I've got 2 younger ones in the same state school and I'm starting to have a rethink.

therhubharbbrothers I personally think this (+ Covid) will further force the uni's to make contextual offers to state school pupils going forward, but obviously only a theory.

I'll be interested to see how it has affected grammars as I have a DC at one.

I don't think it'd help much if they had done it for this year, I think they don't change by much - AAA down to AAB or A*AA to AAA are ones I've heard of from RG universities for popular subjects.