2 Questions is 11 teachers leaving secondary school bad? and is 3rd place reserve likely to get an offer

[claudib]

sorry for multiple Qs!
We have been offered our 2nd choice of (North London) secondary school, just received the newsletter for this school and it said "we are sorry to be saying goodbye to 11 teachers" ..!
seems quite a mutiny!!
It's making me really hope we get an offer in our first choice.. We are currently 3rd on the list ( on my last check).. so 4 kids in band A will have to not take their places for us to get a chance.. are these good odds?

@RainyWinter so he never stays for long, no long term planning or consistency that is essential for schools to be great at their job. Moves in sacks loads of people, micro short term gain and off he goes. Grim

Never trust a head who’s managed ‘all types of schools’

Jack of all trades master of none.

Ideally a Head wouldn’t need more than two schools max to be head of. Because they are good heads and recognise that truly good schools need stability and longevity.

‘Turn around’ heads are a ridiculous concept that have arisen for political reasons in an absence of competent proper head teachers.

How the hell could you aim to turn over 80% of staff in the first year?

Putting staff through capability takes a fair bit of time and you have to give them the opportunity to improve. Is he saying that a school has 80% of staff who are inadequate and therefore need to go through capability? If not, how does he get staff to move on?

I'd be very concerned if I was a governor there, not to mention advertising costs for new jobs or is he bringing in staff that he already knows?

[quote Rosieposy4]@RainyWinter so he never stays for long, no long term planning or consistency that is essential for schools to be great at their job. Moves in sacks loads of people, micro short term gain and off he goes. Grim[/quote]
And also no opportunity for the results of his reorganisation to come to light either.

Moving on frequently allows you to escape from performance management quite successfully doesn't it?

[quote RainyWinter]@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

Quite often in inadequate/special measures schools, you'll have a large proportion of staff who've been there for long periods.

During which time, the school will often have yo-yoyed from requires improvement to inadequate and back again. Some schools have never provided an acceptable standard of education for decades.

If there is to be improvement in these schools, quite simply the staff has to change. Capability is one way of doing this, but change can also be achieved through not renewing short-term contracts, gardening leave or just telling staff that they'd be better off elsewhere.

DH does tend to fill key positions with people he has worked with successfully before. If you can get two strong deputy heads (one leading on behaviour) and two good HODs into Maths and English in a failing school on top of an excellent head, change can be achieved quickly.[/quote]
I'd be very concerned if a new head was coming in and essentially bullying people out of jobs.

How long does he stay at these schools? Long enough for the results of his changes to come to light?

How is he taking these other staff with him?

He isn’t, or hasn’t yet proved himself to be an excellent head @RainyWinter if he moves on all the time. Effective and excellent heads certainly do not accept poor standards, but if he has lead “all sorts of schools” the suggestion is then that he rarely stays more than a few years. Probably not even a full cycle of y7 starters to y13 leavers. As zebras says, it’s a great way for him to avoid PM, to avoid having to cultivate good working relationships with his staff, means he doesn’t have to support his staff through governmental/OFQUAL changes.

[quote RainyWinter]@rosiepoeveeu

Every school DH has worked in has been outstanding by the time he left.[/quote]
So he's stayed in every school long enough to have another Ofsted inspection? Usually Ofsted want to see enough data to prove a sustained improvement too.

Wonder how many tribunals he created for the schools he left behind?

Depends somewhat on the size of the school. But I would consider it something of a red flag. I learned that at my old school a lot of teachers left and it really went downhill, it went from being a great school to one with a serious knife crime problem.

Out of interest rainy what do you do? You seem to know an awful lot about your DHs work strategy.

It’s impossible to tell if that’s a red flag or not. The number of leavers each year will be different. Last year, my school lost 8 teachers (some promoted, some didn’t want to work there anymore, some moving, some encouraged). This year, one teacher is leaving because she’s moving. Two of us are due to go on maternity leave but aren’t leaving.

@RainyWinter
Much of a requires improvement or inadequate school is the leadership. A good leader should be able to motivate and nurture their staff to achieve the best results. They should also bring in the right initiatives to help the children achieve. Yes, of course there are staff coasting in some schools but I would say that it is not 80% of staff unless something has gone massively wrong. Most teachers work their arses off and desperately want the best for their class.

If your husband is swanning in, bullying staff out and then bringing in his own staff from other schools before swanning off again, he’s not a good leader who can encourage a range of staff in a range of schools. I would hate to work for someone with such arrogance.

DH does tend to fill key positions with people he has worked with successfully before.

Hmm... Wonder how one writes the spec for those posts..?

I’ve seen this type of head in my career as a governor. Not that I’ve employed one but I’ve known they are around. I wouldn’t work with a head with such preconceived and ill judged methods. It’s obvious a new head will look at pupil progress and try and ensure data is robust, but you absolutely cannot suggest staff move on. It’s constructive dismissal if the appropriate policies are not followed. Teachers can be required to improve and supported to do that. Others might want to move in anyway. It’s never acceptable to not try and improve staff who wish to stay. 80 per cent turnover is breathtaking and supremely arrogant.

I’m more than aware of these yo-yo schools. They never get good from Ofsted for more than 5 minutes. When heads go into these schools and upset everything they often leave with unresolved issues. They move from RI to Outstanding (not sure I believe this because years of under achieve the isn’t put right in 5 minutes) far too quickly. Enough to satisfy Ofsted but never enough to keep up the quality for very long or embed the best working methods. Young malleable staff and those that move on are rarely good enough to be SLT themselves so their presence is of limited use for the future. Everyone talks the talk, walks the walk for 5 minutes and then pisses off!

Sustained improvement is so difficult. Many schools simply don’t achieve it by the architect of quick turnaround methods then clearing off and letting the children down yet again.

So how many of the schools @RainyWinterthat your DH has been head at ( how many are talking by the way?) have remained outstanding in the inspection cycle following him leaving ie he comes in an ri school, gets them to outstanding for the next OFSTED and leaves. How many are then still outstanding when OFSTED come a calling the next time?

None, Rosie. It's all bollocks. Don't rise to it.

most teachers leave within the first 5 years of teaching. That is because of the conditions in the state education sector, not in any particular school. 11 doesn't sound too bad to me, but it depends on many things. Have all leavers left in summer, or have that number left each term? How many staff are there? 100 teachers, 101leaving per year, pretty good, comparatively. 75 teachers, 11 leaving a term, pretty bad, comparatively.

sorry, that should say 100 teachers 10/11 leaving a year, pretty good

[quote RainyWinter]@beingatwat

Clearly it is not the case that 80% of all teachers in all schools are bad.

Schools that are inadequate however have problems that often stem from a culture of low standards and low expectations that has existed for decades.

With the best will in the world, you are never going to turn around a school that has possibly never delivered an acceptable standard of education or has not done so for 20 years with the same staff who have been part of those decades of failure.[/quote]
If you say so...

Really depends on the size of the school and why they are leaving. Can you get hold of a newsletter? If they are leaving for retirement /promotion /fixed term it may mention that.

OP, id be worried, how have they assessed new staff coming in, they wont have been able to do classroom based assessment.I've worked in a school where new head has come in. Was outstanding, the head that got them there moved onto a more prestigious post. New head came in, school was resting on its laurels, is no longer the first choice for families in the town, let alone the catchment. New head brought in 'mates' to key roles. Some staff needed to go, but they remained. The good ones, not liking the new management style, moved elsewhere. Left with ineffective middle and lots of NQTs as serious cost cutting was another new head strategy(despite spending loads on marketing -state school...) Some of the mates now moved on, used school as stepping stone to better things with shiny reference from the head, including headships. School still going downhill. Ive heard that Covid teaching and support has been a joke for all years. School still outstanding as they were due an inspection this summer. When will Ofsted recommends inspections? There's a whole new other thread. The atmosphere was wrong from the day I started and that was before I learnt the full extent of the internal politics. got out as soon as I could.

It depends. The occasional 10% turnover in secondary is okay but if it is every year then there is a problem.

@RainyWinter DH head may well struggle to recruit and retain good staff. Personally I have never heard of a school losing 80% of the staff in a year - that must have been horrendous for the students. It certainly sends a warning flag to any potential staff and does not instil school loyalty

@CallmeAngelina - yep you have nailed it

@Rosieposy4 - good point. The likelihood of being outstanding after getting rid of 80% of staff in the next OFSTED is zilch.

All those deleted posts!

I agree. They were not outstanding in 5 minutes and even if they were, I bet they didn’t stay that way. Just a wind up!