house move best London state secondaries for boys

[happyhippo82]

Just that really. We need to move house and the main factor is trying to find the best secondary for DS. Cannot afford private or religious schools - and really not sure that he'd pass an exam for Grammar. So if you have to move (ideally zones 2-3) which one would you target? Our local comp is terrible and everything else around here is private. Most of our friends have moved out of London for schools, but we're very reticent to do so.....any suggestions???

@Doodar - that's when am pretty naive. I went to an all-girls catholic school and all my friends went private so it probably sounds pretty sheltered but we literally didn't have any disruptive kids There arent really any even at DS' primary.

Our primary asked if there was any child you wouldn’t want your child to be with when they left year 6 when offers were sent out. I think the same names come up. One child was permanently excluded in year 8 and it took months for him to find another school to take him. I think Ofsted are bringing in measures to stop the amount of pupils being excluded. Lots of the 6 forms are very selective too, high grades are needed to get in. Plus you’re kicked out in year 11 if you’re not going to pass A levels/Btecs.

@happyhippo82, friends of mine with boys send them to Forest Hill and are very happy with how they're getting on. The school had a turbulent time financially a few years ago which I think was connected to the BSF but it has a good reputation locally and boys travel from further afield to get there (having chosen it over other, more local, schools). That area has access to lots of decent schools, Kingsdale is another popular one and is mixed.

I think a lot of London comps outperform the rest of the country. I second the poster who said about Alexandra Palace and Fortismere, but they are both quite pricey areas (sure you would get something for your budget). I have a DD at Highgate Wood, it seems to do well with kids who want to learn. Nice colleagues have clever boys at Acland Burghley. Umm, further out I have no direct experience at all but Wren Academy is mentioned on these threads sometimes. Good luck

thank you very much to everyone for posting their suggestions/advice - have noted them all down. have now created a few zoopla alerts and will hopefully be able to go and visit some of the schools next year. :-)

My DS goes to Fortismere and so far we've been really pleased and he loves it. Your reasoning sounds similar to ours - I just couldn't bring myself to go all in on tutoring etc for private school (I did put him in for a couple of less academic ones as back up, but really only in case he didn't get into Fortismere, APS, Highgate Wood etc. It was never a plan A). I had similar aversion to grammar and religious schools.
I personally really like the no-uniform vibe of Fortismere but I know that puts a lot off. I also really liked APS too - the Head was really inspiring - but we weren't close enough (and on balance I would probably have veered towards Fortismere anyway, though both great). I have heard good things Highgate Wood too, and in fact when it came to it, most of the other schools I looked at and considered (Heartlands, Acland Burghley, William Ellis - though you wouldn't get into those last 2 now from Muswell Hill) I would have been happy with. All of these schools are popular now that the likelihood is that if you are close enough to get into one, you wouldn't be close enough to get into one of the others. Cut-offs have shrunk to the point that there really isn't much overlap. Feel free to message me if you want any more info on Fortismere

Go out Barnet / mill hill way. Wren Academy, Archer, Mill Hill county. All within your budget and all (which is essentially what you’re saying without saying) a high contingent of middle class motivated kids.

Archer is indeed good but postcode-dependant, you'd need to be careful about that. Don't know anyone with kids at Wren but it's at least partly church IIRC? Mill Hill has a great rep, has some selective places. Finchley is indeed a mecca for schools but (or "and consequently") not as cheap as you'd think.

happyhippo82, people speak very highly of Ashmole Academy in Southgate (N14), although it may be in zone 4.

What are your reasons for not wanting to move out of London OP? Loathe though I am to encourage people to keep moving to my town & push prices up even further, the reality is you get more for your money in a nicer location, state schools are excellent & the commute into London is quicker than from most London outer suburbs. I can be on Oxford Street in 35 minutes from local station.

South London state schools with significant white middle-class intake: Graveney Tooting, Kingsdale, Charter schools (Dulwich) St Cecilia's Wandsworth?, Elmgreen Norwood, Dunraven Streatham, Haberdasher's Askes Hatcham New Cross; Predergast Lewisham (girls only), Harris Academies in Norwood and Battersea?, Chestnut Grove, Balham . . .all the schools frequently name-checked here. I don't know any of them personally just local hearsay, so correct me if you know better.
I would like to make the point though that white middle class doesn't necessarily equal most well-behaved and motivated. It probably does equal high level of private tutoring.
The most motivated, studious kids are, my impression is, from 1st gen immigrant African, Asian and east European families, also Latin Americans. Lots of those everywhere in London.

@marytuda thank you very much for the additional names of schools - I will check them out.

However, nowhere in my post did I suggest that I was white/British or that this is what I was aiming at. My definition of a nice school is one which has motivated happy kids with high aspiration and without too much bullying (what is it with bullying in the UK???). However, in the UK (London) this seems to be a rarety due to class and social stratification. I would like my son to go to a mixed comp, but not one in which all the smart kids and/or with aspirational mc/wc parents (I dont assume that wc parents don't have aspirations for their kids) got creamed off at 11. But I realise that this is a particular London problem.....

Am also a city person and find suburbs depressing. If such schools existed in zone 1 and housing there was within my budget (Holland Park school is fine - but I cant buy a house there) then I would stay centrally. But I cant so would like to move to zone 2-3.

London is a very big place and its great to get people's personal experiences of schools in different areas. Also, things change and even searching on MN often brings up old threads that might not be relevant today. So this has been great :-)

Happyhippo that's fine I was just responding to a PP who suggested this (middle-class intake anyway) was what you seemed to be looking for. I do find the whole London schools' social makeup thing fascinating, and how it correlates to function and attainment . . . maybe I should do a thesis on it! (wouldn't be the first I don't suppose).
Comps by definition are mixed so there will nearly always be some kids, studious and motivated, others, disaffected. Bullying is a question of how well it’s managed - there are kids in every type of school who will try it on if they can.

I think in any ofsted good or outstanding comp - and there are many if not most in London - there will be excellent teaching and a fair number of kids who are high-achieving and proud of it; enough for your child to join them . . . there are a couple like this round here (virtually 100% BAME, zero white-middle-class) which do pretty well and are full of those fairly impoverished but very aspirational immigrant families. White middle class parents might be anxious about their kids fitting in socially (in fact I know they are) but they have no grounds for worry about academic attainment - and my personal view is that their over-protected kids would learn a great deal from moving, with full parental support naturally, out of their usual social comfort zone. (Black Lives Matter, anyone?)

These schools are very rarely mentioned on these threads or genuinely considered by Mumsnetters - yet they are great schools, many of the kids brilliant and lovely, and much of the teaching fantastic I believe, far better, probably, than at some complacent leafy place which knows most kids will be privately tutored anyway.
Personally in your position I think I would take a punt on a place like that (especially if BAME myself); I'm sure they exist in every London borough, but the two I'm thinking of here in Lambeth are Platanos and Lilian Bayliss. Possibly also Lambeth Academy, Evelyn Grace, St Gabriel's (know them less well). . . and Pimlico Academy (bit more 'upmarket' I believe so possibly one or two wmc's!) . . though like Holland Park not somewhere you can afford to buy, probably.
There's also Ashcroft in Putney - now that's super high achieving, super modern and well-resourced, but has v strict rep and is quite ruthless I've heard with kids who don't fit/strive sufficiently and may possibly have undiagnosed issues . . Bit of subtle offloading goes on, is the rumour. But it obviously does what it does very well, clearly appeals to ambitious immigrant families with traditional attitudes to discipline, and I'll be honest we were personally very tempted at the time.
Best of luck . . Personally I think London comps are fantastic in general, largely due to their brilliantly diverse intake and above-averagely wonderful, youthful, motivated staff. They are of course underfunded, and this is the biggest disadvantage especially for those with an impoverished intake; they can’t hit on the parent body for subsidies either directly or via private tutoring – and it is a worry.
I still think, though, the example of brilliant staff and students working miracles together in challenging circumstances is an exceptional life lesson for any child, from any background; easily worth a couple fewer GCSE options, or posh available extra-curriculars. Trust me, your child will be super busy anyway, and won’t miss them!

@marytuda no worries, I just thought that it was important to point out that all sorts of parents can be a tad neurotic regarding school choices and the never-ending quest of finding a nice school for their child. And I will definitely look into the places you mentioned. For example, I've never heard of St Cecilia's in Wandsworth as I left the area before it opened. Honestly, despite growing up in London in the 90s most of my information is simply out of date or based on my personal reading of them as a stroppy teenager e.g. regarding Tiffins girls or Graveney or Ark Putney or even Ashcroft (aka ADT). So rather than basing everything on that - getting insights from current parents is invaluable.

Kids in London do tend to be split up into their own appropriate demographic/schools e.g. grammar, private, religious or even the new super-strict schools that try to kick wc kids into shape e.g. Mossbourne, Paddington, Westminster, Ashcroft. I am not really sure that there are all that many true comps left i.e. schools that actually represent their local community. What we often classify as comps are effectively secondary moderns with lots of 'naice' kids creamed off. Of course, kids can do great in those but the lack of facilities and aspirations (often on the part of the school) is not great. In that respect, I do not expect my kid to only mix with white upper mc kids but neither do I think that he should never come across them in his environment because London is full of them.

What has changed over the last twenty years are catchment areas and competition for school places (splitting single-family houses into multiple flats will do that to a place). Whereas previously kids had a chance of getting into lots of different schools, nowadays one basically has to focus on the one school and the right catchment area when buying a house. Hence I am trying to do a bit of research before visiting a few schools in person although whether that will be possible in the next academic year is still an unknown. So getting current info on those from other parents is absolutely great.

It's true that 'naice' kids tend to congregate in the same state schools - but I dispute that they are necessarily the most able, so the 'secondary modern' label for all the rest is not quite fair . . . though I know what you're saying. But representing the local community is a tall order in a place as densely and diversely - in every sense - populated as London .. .. There are communities within communities; you can live right next to families for decades without knowing their names or exchanging the time of day.
I don't know what's the answer. I confess I wanted my DS to travel a bit to secondary, after spending a v happy 7 yrs in the primary over the road . . I felt it would do him good to experience a different part of London and meet kids from all over - whilst keeping in touch with his local primary school friends.
And I wasn't the only one; his Y6 class of 30 entered Y7 at 14 different state secondaries scattered across 5 London boroughs. All of them are nominally comps - but as you say, some, um, more fashionable/desirable than others.

Some really good insight from @marytuda there. I would add that we shouldnt imagine that all state schools in London arent underfunded or have a high turnover of staff as they do. This does affect the teaching and is mostly got around by very high levels of tutoring.

My dc are in sought after state schools and I was a bit naive about the levels of tutoring that goes on.

Not always true, ChristopherTracy. A fair few kids at my son's comp are slated to get good grades (so all 7's and above) and I haven't heard of any being tutored.

the question of tutoring is an interesting one - how much tutoring is going on? And why..................? Is it really that much harder to pass exams now than it used to be? And I say that as someone that went to top two unis

Have you considered Graveney in SW London? It’s a very big school with a tight catchment area and 2 selective classes. Generally well regarded.

I hadnt heard of any either until I asked ds and then it transpired that everyone apart from him in his maths set was being tutored and lots of his friends also had science tutoring as well.

We then put some (cheaper group) tutoring in place and his maths improved massively, he is now hoping for an 8, he needs a 7 to stay on anyway.

It is rife - I was shocked by it.

Were people tutored before and I just hadnt realised....?

Will check Graveney out - not sure whether I'd want DS to do all the prepping for the exam. I haven't been to the area in years, but I don't think the catchment area is all that nice to live in but happy to be proven wrong. As I said having been there in like twenty years.

Orleans Park in Twickenham is very good. An outstanding OFSTED, good academic results at GCSE and Alevel - a couple to Oxbridge every year. Great sports (Borough champs at a couple of sports) and arts provision (you can do 5 or 6 arts GCSEs, from photography to textiles). Behaviour pretty good but not perfect (very strong bullying policy and practice and little bullying, bad behaviour more stuff like talking in class or being late). Very responsive teaching staff, pastoral care excellent. My DS is very happy there.

I live next to Fortismere -it seems very popular and I love this area. Also from what I can see of them walking up my street good diversity of students

Marytuda sorry just to correct you slightly. The schools you mention aren’t white middle class schools. Particularly Elmgreen and Dunraven. The areas around those schools are really diverse and they both admit on catchment. They are all good and sought after schools. Sorry if I misinterpreted your initial post though.

happyhippo We viewed pretty much all of the schools mentioned by Marytuda and I would’ve been happy for our children to go to any of them. Our DS is going to one on the list. Graveney is a good school and the surrounding area is lovely now. A real community feel with nice housing stock. But you could easily be in the catchment area for one of the others with a budget of 1.2. PM me if you want any further intel.

I met a teacher at Graveney and he was evangelical about it which really impressed me.

Our D.C. go to top state schools and yes tutoring is very common. We do it.