Latymer (grammar) or Highgate?

[Conundrum2020]

So, we will very soon have to make the decision between Latymer (the grammar school) and Highgate for DC. Highgate is closer and, of course, has much better premises (with those fees, they ought to have so that is normal). But I feel that Latymer is more diverse and, of course, it is free! I do understand that funding is an issue for all state schools, so we would have no problems contributing to the schools (it would be nothing like paying for an indie in any case).

We are not wealthy but have the money sorted for going to Highgate the next 7 years. But the money saved by going to Latymer could pay for an awful lot of "extras" (including a deposit for a flat for DC when that time comes).

What would you do? The naicer indie or the excellent grammar?

Thank you icantbelievethis001 for answering XelaM's question addressed to me. Believe it or not, that was 90% of what I had already written yesterday in readiness to reply XelaM but other events came about and I had left my answer unfinished meaning to come back later.

I mentioned that for whatever reason(s) if people put constraints on their choices of schools e.g. distance, gender, type, religion, etc. then they are unduly limiting themselves to the number of possibilities available. In addition to your list and without any constraints but within reason, I had also mentioned City of London School for Girls as well as the other City of London for Boys, the two Haberdashers' at Elstree, St Albans High School for Girls and Merchant Taylors' Boys, the latter ones just outside London - all these schools IMO are a league above Highgate.

All the above schools where one has to pay a fortune in order to attend do not necessarily mean they are all "better" than all state schools. There's something to say upthread when a poster described it as "no brainer" when deciding on Latymer vs Highgate.

I see where you're coming from OP and I'd already sus out long ago that you're not originally from the UK - well, neither am I. But I think you're slightly misunderstanding me here on this thread when I used the term "league" as in "premium", "first rate", "third rate" etc. Those terms were used to distinguish between class and reputation and not to distinguish between academic performances. But again, how can one acquire class and reputation without the accompanying academic performance?

Re Oxford and Cambridge, I'm totally in agreement with you and XelaM. I'd previously got into some very heated arguments with certain obvious Oxbridge devotees who actually think Oxford and Cambridge, Oxbridge, is the be all and the end all. Fact of the matter is that I know of idiots who had gone to Oxbridge (no doubt via some influential and serious string-pulling) and real geniuses who were unsuccessful to get even an interview. And I'm smiling in the final analysis to see who is laughing at who - the Oxbridge graduate with an unheard of degree still looking for a job after two years or the graduate who went to an unheard of university being guaranteed a job even before the course started?

Intersting peterneras. Whilst a main criteria is/was co-ed, we did look at three of the schools you mentioned. One was discarded immediately due to the attitude of the students (inc the high percentage of kippers in their "GE"). I felt it was one of those schools where you have a name that used to be good but where there's little underneath nowadays. One of the others, I know of very bad cases of bullying and the visit did not make me/us believe otherwise, unfortunately...

Anyway, whilst Highgate is a good choice for DC due to being co-ed and the location, I by no mean feel that it is inferior in reputation or academics now in 2020, and I believe that it is not just my personal opinion, to your list. The initial list, yes (but then it is the location). Otherwise, we'd never even contemplated paying for it. One of these three schools did impress me but then it was the matter of single sex and distance.

Saying that, I'm still not sure if Latymer can't provide what we're looking for.

peteneras (sorry for typo of your name above!), I very much value your input and that it challenges me. 🙏

Tbh following this thread I'm getting the vibe you've now jumped into an endless rabbit hole of comparing which school is better and how much is education really worth and whether £150k is a large sum to spend.
You seem to have a good thinking hat on but don't overthink it. It's great to get various view points and Mumsnet can be very helpful in that but this will be an endless debate that can turn sour.

You know best what your child is like and likely your gut instinct is already telling you what choice to go for.

Malmontar Lol, as I wrote the last comments, I was thinking just that. I am an overthinker by nature, I think . It has been useful, though, to be "challenged" as it makes me think (even more ). Had I not had pros and cons for either option, I would never have been here. I feel more confident that 2 March I/we will "know" and feel comfortable with the decision. In the meantime, I'll clear up the mountain of laundry after halfterm!

Thanks everyone. 🌷

Never mind about my name Conundrum2020, it's not important. What's more important is to make the right decision for your child but in your case either way you decide your child is the winner as I'd said before, both are great schools. Equally more important is the chance to save tens and tens of thousands of £s and still reach the same destination at the end.

FWIW, I remember when I applied to Latymer for my DD all those years ago and standing behind me in the long queue reading a book with a young girl beside her on test day, was a famous BBC journalist. Somehow we got talking and I got the impression that this lady was very keen to get Latymer for her daughter. I remember thinking to myself, with her job as a famous BBC journalist, surely she could afford the very best private schools for her daughter? Till this day I still wonder if her DD was successful at Latymer or not and which school did she finally go to? Likewise, I'm keen to know your ultimate decision - PM me if you feel more comfortable and it's also OK if you decide to keep it a secret. Good luck!

Good luck with your decision OP. Hopefully your DC does have a clear idea of what they would prefer. I agree that Highgate has changed and has become a lot more academic and socially aware. However, I would ask around regarding the “party scene” at the school and what it is really like these days. That is the one thing that made me chose superselective grammar for one of my DCs over the top co-Ed independent. It is an issue at most of the top co-Ed independents and it just doesn’t suit every child.

This thread entertained me so much. @peteneras "Unbeknown to him, I was watching DS at a distance going about his business on convocation day and anyway he went, there seemed to be a small crowd - all fellow new medics - following him. DS would soon be surrounded by his peers, all listening to him intently and occasionally all burst out laughing spontaneously. It was quite apparent to me that DS was seen as the natural leader amongst the group and I remember thinking, wow, this is what private education is all about; leadership and confidence! Not forgetting those being "led" are not exactly fools and idiots either - they're all doctors!" I wish I could put this quote up somewhere, more people need to see it. :)
Anyway, @Conundrum2020, which school did you choose? Did your child input to the decision?

@Lacacahuete It was a no-brainer in the end. Visits to both schools made the decision easy. And at that point it was fully DC's decision. Being foreign, I might vue the school choice differently (? 🤷‍♀️) but I find DC's view fundamental. I believe that that motives the child. But then, we never forced DC to sit any exams or do any prep - we said that it was up to DC but would of course support if any help was needed. I know some children didn't have summer holidays or were motivated by money but that's not how we roll.

Latymer was our final decision, well DC's final decision. DC just preferred the school and the head teacher. I also preferred the parents .

@Conundrum2020 That sounds great! I'm sure he'll thrive!

I am appalled by the absolute entitlement of the obviously rich north Londoners on this post.

Latymer was set up to help the working class clever kids of north London. These working class clever kids are being excluded from a grammar school education by people who are choosing Latymer because it’s free.

The same people are badmouthing the areas where these kids live but are happy to take a place away from them because it’s free.

You have the money to tutor your average children. You have the money to send your children to private school. You choose to take a school place away from an amazing working class north London (Tottenham/ Edmonton) child because you want it ‘for free’.

Our Tottenham/ Edmonton areas may not be the most up and coming. We are no Stoke Newington/ Finchley. We cannot afford tutors for our brightest, they have to make do with state schools with overstretched teachers. But we believe in our kids. And we can only afford ‘free education’.

Shame on you.

@Conky1975

No, shame on YOU!

I feel sorry for your DCs to be raised by a hater as yourself. You have no idea how anyone has acquired the money. I had rather had my family alive than money.

Also, you are disgusting for calling our DCs average because of a discussion their parents are having here. But I won't judge your DCs even if they're being raised by a hater.

I have to say thank you, though. Thank you for creating a further divide in society. As a non-Brit, I'll never get used to the pure rudeness by so many based on pure assumptions that you're showcasing so nicely.

I hope your DCs don't have to suffer too much despite their upbringing. Being surrounded by hate is never going to go well.

Oh, @Conky1975, if you have time to sit down with your DCs to do any school work, you're just being a hypocrite. But I guess you're aware of that already. Paid or non-paid help (including extra help from school) is the same.

Highgate vote from me..

Latymer is a great school but I know parents who do car shares every day particularly after dark (i.e. 4.30 pm in winter) because of the issues with crime. While kids are mugged all over London for their phones, it is another level in Edmonton. The walk from Silver Street is long one.

Sorry - missed the dates on this thread!!

@NOTANUM There haven't been that many muggings so far and not more than around the local comp. I just think that we live in London, so DCs have to be independent and learn to look out for themselves. To me, that is actually a selling point.

Conky I do understand your perspective and do agree that it is a bit sad that the school has moved so far away from the original ethos that kids need intensive tutoring to get in. That said the exams (Maths anyway) cover things to the end of Y6 while they take place at the start of Y6 so children need to have done some extra learning to be able to attempt the exams. It's a shame that lots of parents use the exams as practice for independent schools, and also that they have to allow out of catchment children who have no intention of going to sit the exams. This makes it even more competitive. They do have 20 places for children in FSM and they need to get in top 900 rather than top 192 to get in, which is a small help. But even then I don't think top 900 would be achievable even for the brightest child without some test papers and covering the Y6 material.

Most Dangerous Areas In London

According to Churchill Security, the most dangerous areas in London are:

Westminster – Crime rate 321.4 crimes per 1,000 people
Camden – Crime rate 154.2 crimes per 1,000 people
Kensington and Chelsea – Crime rate 153.9 crimes per 1,000 people
Hammersmith and Fulham – Crime rate 129.2 crimes per 1,000 people
Islington – Crime rate 125.6 crimes per 1,000 people

We witnessed many mugging of children coming out of Highgate around the bus stops (DC attended a nearby primary and police presence was very noticeable in the end). It seemed like gangs were particularly targeting the 3:30 crowd.

And to add to OP's dismay about supposedly taking places from poorer school kids: Education is not free in this country, despite what people may say. Those who send their kids private pay their taxes, which pays for state school places, so they actually end up paying double. So let's not get carried away and accuse them of stealing school places.

In addition I'd say you'd be deceiving yourself if you think the place you left behind would go to a poor working class pupil that needs it the most. Another Middle class pupil scoping up that Free place is the most likely scenario.

@TheyWentToSeaInASieve @Elij00 What are you on about? 😡

That argument - to give a place to someone who might not be able to afford private school - is an argument I've heard from others. I don't believe in it myself. Also, it is perfectly possible to be middle class without being able to afford an independent school. Or are you saying that mc families who can't afford private school fees should also not have access to grammar schools? Only if you're poor or wealthy enough to pay for an indie, you're allowed to go to grammar?

Did you just come to an old thread to be rude and put words in my mouth for your own entertainment? Thank you very much.

Oh, and we're very happy with DC's choice almost two terms in now.

Nowhere in my post did I say the Middle classes should not be allowed to attend a Grammar. What I do say however is that no tax paying citizen should feel pressurised to give up His/Her grammar place in the feint hope of it going to a poor pupil.

Let's not beat around the bushes, that's the narrative being pushed on Mumsnet when stats have shown it's simply goes to another middle class(either in wealth or educational attainment)Family.

I definitely was not rude however if you felt otherwise then I apologise

@TheyWentToSeaInASieve

We witnessed many mugging of children coming out of Highgate around the bus stops (DC attended a nearby primary and police presence was very noticeable in the end). It seemed like gangs were particularly targeting the 3:30 crowd.

And to add to OP's dismay about supposedly taking places from poorer school kids: Education is not free in this country, despite what people may say. Those who send their kids private pay their taxes, which pays for state school places, so they actually end up paying double. So let's not get carried away and accuse them of stealing school places.

Aah well. They can afford it .

@Conundrum2020 I was responding to Conky. I am in full support of you having a choice and agree with your comments. You have presumably paid your taxes and you should have the full choice of state schools. Whether you can afford private education is irrelevant. I am tired of hearing the old argument of stealing places from poor children. I agree with @Elij00.

And I am on old thread because I am researching the same schools. Though I dislike Highgate, but that’s another story. My children will be going next year, so I am doing my mumsnet due diligence.

Now may I ask you how well did Latymer perform under lockdown? I am getting the impression that many private schools became organised very quickly and provided live tuition from Lockdown 1. But many state schools sent worksheets only. (It’s our experience with a highly regarded state primary.) Would you mind sharing how Latymer fared?