Shouldnt equal education be available to everyone?

[angell84]

I have just returned to the U.K. after a very long period abroad, and I am shocked at the school system in the U.K. I lived in another country where equal education was available to everyone.

Why do we have comprehensive, and independant and fee paying schools in the U.K? Why is better education given to those with money who can afford it? Shouldn't equal education be available to everyone?
The discrimination in education - is shocking in the U.K.

@AdultHumanFemale I sympathize with your emotions and feel for the inequality in opportunities. One can make a similar argument as well for healthcare, home ownership, jobs etc. etc. etc. Sadly that is the world & life presently isn't it?

So which of these services should be considered essential? Which of these should be free? Which of these should be free and equal? Who decides? Who provides and who pays for it?

Anyway abolishing private schools isn't the solution to what you highlighted. Assume for a moment that happens, and all children get asked to go to state schools paying no fees? Can state schools cope with the overload? Not to mention having funding to provide similar facilities that you mention being provided in the private schools but to a larger population now?

What would be the next step to address funding issue? Means based tuition levy? That wouldn't be equal or free is it?

@peteneras Totally agree, UK education system . Many countries model their own after us or send students our way to benefit from a well rounded education.

If OP is too lazy to utilize the resources available, work hard and fight to uplift, yet blame the State for not doling out freebies that is just too bad.

You shouldn't have more choice because you have money!

OP - where in the world is this not true?! So those who work hard for a decent career should not be able to have any extra choices compared to those who choose not to work?

South Korea has the world’s most equitable education system. Japan and Singapore follow closely behind. However, South Korea has quite a reputation for hothousing pupils, and in my husband’s experience from working there, while they are good at passing exams, they cannot think outside of the box. They need hand holding and have no initiative as their way of learning is very rigid and prescribed. They know the what, but not the how and the why. And they don’t receive a rounded education. I would be interested to know what SEN provision is made in these countries as well.

Interestingly most of the university students who come to university in the UK from these countries are taking science subjects – engineering, medicine or medicine related subjects, because they fit well with this type of learning. I imagine that if they were faced with an essay question starting with the word “discuss” they would feel a little bemused.

Like a Scottish pp, where I live in South Yorkshire we have no private or grammar schools at all in our LA, and most students simply go to their nearest comprehensive school. With the best will in the world there is no way that all schools are equal because the demographic at each school is not equal. And because of the idiots who voted this government in the gap between the haves and the have nots will widen.

This is interesting, and so is this

Finland, Latvia, and Poland have the most equal education systems in Europe so, assuming the OP was living in Europe she must have lived in one of these countries. Which one is it?

Whatever school system exists, it is impossible to offer exactly equal educational opportunities to every child. So much depends on the family. If forced into a state school which doesn't offer education to the taste of the parents, those with the resources to do so will either opt out or supplement with tutors, Latin, rowing, guided additional reading etc. etc. This argument always makes me think of the Millibands: they may have been to an ordinary comprehensive but not only was it situated in a very privileged area, when they came home, their kitchen table was effectively London's leading left wing salon. That is an educational experience which cannot be replicated for every child.

Here is an article from the Guardian.

I think you’ll find plenty of Guardian journalists were privately educated, and the former editor Alan Rusbridger sent his children to private school, as did columnist Polly Toynbee.

You shouldn't have more choice because you have money!

So what would be the point of working so bloody hard then if it’s not going to give you more choices? What would be the argument for paying taxes if it’s not going to give the country more choices?Thank God we don’t live in a system like that.

But education is not free in all countries. If you can't afford to educate your child, they don't go to school

So what would be the point of working so bloody hard

Not everyone works hard for their money.

All children should receive a good education. If you were to remove independent schools then almost no one would get one. It doesn’t matter how equal education is if it’s shit.

I don't think the answer is to abolish independent schools, but to fund state schools so they are on an equal footing. Obviously some independent schools will still have beautiful grounds and traditions that state schools tend not to have, but people can choose to pay for they have the money.

My DCs school is falling further and further into debt because they just aren't receiving sufficient funds. I am close to taking my DC out and sending them to an independent school, just so they can receive what I consider to be a standard level of education, not substandard with nearly 40 in an art class, absent teachers covered by admin staff and zero resources.

@posterGinfordinner .. Refer to my earlier post about the hidden "costs" embedded in some of these equitable education systems.

South Korea has a pressure cooker university entrance process, compulsory conscription into Armed Forces at age of 18 lasting 2 years.

Singapore screens children at primary leaving based on ability in form of exam (similar to 11+), the secondary school a child goes into pretty much dictates the rest of their life. Pressure cooker environment right through school. Late bloomers have zero chance, neither does creativity or innovation. There is also compulsory conscription for all males at age of 18 for 2 years.

None of these above requirements are avoidable, in both countries dodging the draft is a criminal offense.

Now please tell me, will UK citizens accept any of the above for their children in return for a similar "equitable education system" as in those countries?

Oh, god, it's you again...

It's called choice. We aren't a dictatorship, and people are entitled to spend their money as they please.

Education is a human right. The state provides access to education and that offer is taken up by 93% of parents.

Really - go back to moaning about how the UK is more racist than Australia/Canada or how you want a man who will start your car for you because all Irish men are unchivalrous mummy's boys. You'll still be as ill-informed, but it makes it easier for other posters to identify you rather than indulging your sophomoric whims and only realising too late.

@deep501 ‘If OP is too lazy to utilize the resources available, work hard and fight to uplift, yet blame the State for not doling out freebies that is just too bad’

Well said..my sentiments exactly

There are some basic misunderstandings by the OP

Fairness does not mean giving the same to everyone - if you have a starving child and a well fed child you wouldn’t feed them identically- fairness would be to give each what they need - equality therefore is not about having the identical same but trying to get all what they need...

We don’t do well at that - but the answer is not to remove what is excellent and leave everyone with what is less good on the basis that they all have the same (labour / communist approach) - the answer is to find ways of giving the same opportunity to all... even if it means that the actual education is different for each child...

From a social perspective - Eton is one of the most socially diverse schools in the country - they are moving to a needs blind approach where any child who would benefit from an Eton education, regardless of background / social class / wealth will be able to go even if they need a free place to allow that - they have people out all around the country looking for suitable boys in school systems who wouldn’t traditionally send a child to Eton...

Many other private schools are also looking at this approach - they also tend to have more of a social mix as they offer a mixture of bursaries, scholarships, etc and take in children from a wider catchment area.

On the other hand most state schools are a very narrow social mix as the school tends to take children from a narrow area and therefore similar housing / social mixture... in fact good state schools will increase demand and narrow the area and influence house prices making it even less diversified

So the reality is very different from the left wing inaccuracies the OP is spouting - getting rid of private schools would weaken our society not make it fairer...

On the other hand - dealing with child poverty (poverty at a wealth / emotional / parenting / opportunity / etc level) would be a very good thing- it is just much harder than the easy jealousy driven target of get rid of the ‘elite’ which needs no thinking or intelligence to propagate as a concept ;)

I don't think the answer is to abolish independent schools, but to fund state schools so they are on an equal footing

Absolutely agree with this ^^

Exactly deep501. It doesn’t make their education systems better than ours then. I saw a TV programme a while back about China (I think), and possibly South Korea where children are forced to study until ridiculously late in the evening. It can’t be good for their mental health.

Where is this educational Utopia where you lived OP?

I was at a book club here in the U.K, and a man that was present bragged about what school he went to, and looked down his nose at some of the other people in the group, who went to lesser schools
I remember looking at him with incredulity, thinking "you are a man in your forties, who cares what school you went to"
Normally people who do this haven't achieved much since they left school, so have to hark back to when they last felt superior.

I was at a book club here in the U.K, and a man that was present bragged about what school he went to, and looked down his nose at some of the other people in the group, who went to lesser schools

I don't mix with people like this. Folk in Yorkshire are much more down to earth.

So what would be the point of working so bloody hard

Not everyone works hard for their money

I don’t see what the point of this ‘trying to be clever’ comment is. Most people work bloody hard for their money, very few are so privileged that they don’t need to work. They are in the very small minority. Is that better now ?

OP still hasn't told us which country they are in.

Or whether it provides free health care.

Do expand on this OP...

were in. They've moved back to the UK.
Did you do any research into the UK education system before you came OP?

The people at the top haven’t been to any old private school, they’ve been to one of around ten of fifteen top tier private schools. Those people are also almost exclusively male, maybe we should ban private schools for boys? The privilege of those people didn’t start at school, it started at birth, private schools are a symptom not a cause. If private schools were to be banned in the UK the very richest would simply be either sending their children abroad to boarding school or hiring private tutors. The slightly less rich but still wealthy would be buying property near the countries best state schools. Banning private schools wouldn’t get rid of the endemic, entrenched elitism of Britain’s top institutions.

Also, you did not mention equality of postcodes in your posts.

I'm not sure where you moved back to, but a few miles away from me there is an exceptional state school - trouble is, the houses have an exceptional price tag. The catchment is extremely tight so it's mostly wealthy children who go. So even if you abolish fee paying schools, how do you tackle that inequality?

@angell84 Sets are needed, I went to a state secondary school that only had sets in English and Maths. At school I was an A/A* pupil across everything but the arts. I had to share my science, geography and history classes with pupils who were E grade students. As a result I wasn’t given the opportunity to learn, they also weren’t given the opportunity to learn. I had to teach myself to secure an A grade at GCSE as the teacher had no choice but to teach for the average student in the class.

Even if we abolish public schools it doesn’t remove equality. Do you think state schools in poor areas will offer the same educational chances as those in wealthy areas?

There are a lot of ill-informed left wing comments here starting with OP who even refuses to disclose which education utopia he witnessed. Then there are people claiming that not everyone works hard for their money. I am shocked!

It's heartening to see objective opinions as well from @Mumto2two, @CountFosco making different yet conscious choices about state vs private schools for their DC.

From my own experience, I can say that without the advantage of being from a privileged class or attending private school it was possible to attend a top university pursuing a course of my interest, have a fulfilling career including postings abroad and get to financial affluence. But nothing comes easy, one has to work hard for it especially money. If one keeps up the effort, sooner or later opportunities come along.

Delegating the responsibility of equal education to the State and then expecting opportunities to be doled out won't cut it. Neither does adopting a cynical attitude, pessimism and constantly bickering about an unfair system.

All I can say is please continually encourage your DC on optimism, can-do attitude, diligent study ethics and the willingness to pursue dreams. Support them to the best of your abilities and then watch them thrive and fly high.