Competitions and winter born advantage...

[Mumto2two]

In terms of competitions such as Bebras, Primary Maths challenge etc., it does seem that without any form of age adjustment, older children are clearly advantaged.
Our daughter is summer born, so at age 8 had a high merit on Bebras in the 8-10 category, and a high distinction at age 9. Clearly age has an impact..and now at 10 she has to compete against 12 year olds, which seems unfair.
Equally with the maths challenge. She scored one mark less than the 2 winter born kids who were chosen to go to bonus round, which also seems a little unfair. This must surely be a common theme where age is not differentiated in any way?

thehorseandhisboy, that's not what I am saying eithr. In short, what I am sayig is stop obsessing about few months difference in the months your child is born and move on. She just found the perfect excuse for her dd not getting picked by getting 1 lower mark than other children. That's life.

Nothing you are saying on this topic is in anyway logical. Having any number of gifted siblings or children..does not equate to an understanding of the inherent points being discussed here. My parenting in terms of how I address my child’s disappointment and discouragement from this, are not being discussed here, I don’t need advice on that, thank you all the same...

What do you gain from this though? If people agreed with you, you think they are logical, and if they don't, not logical? People have brought up lots of example that many things aren't fair in life. Age cut off point is not a big deal in life, if your child is advanced in terms of ability anyway.

There are quite a lot of thought provoking posts on this thread, in terms of perspectives and insight to gain sunflower.

Those that say things like 'my brother was born in August and he was top of his class and is now an Oxford professor' are only thought provoking in terms of how dramatically they miss the point. These people are outliers (I'm one of them), which gives more weight to the validity of the normal distribution curve, rather than disprove or discount it.

As I mentioned earlier, people tend to regard any process or measurement as 'fair' if it favours them. Vanity or seeking evidence to confirm your pre-existing views are the main reason for this, and possibly lacking the intelligence or will to see the bigger picture.

Age cut off is a significant factor in academic attainment and self-perception as a child, which influences many factors of adult life.

It's perspectives like OPs that led to 11+ scores being aged standardised and the evidence for this view that underpins the scaled and standardised scoring of IQ tests.

And her point, that if these internationally used and recognised measures of intelligence/abililty etc use age standardisation because it is a big deal, why not organisations like PMC?

And the reason they don't is because schools want to enter the children who score highest at a particular point in time, which presents a systemic and structural disadvantage to younger children (aka the shit load of evidence that supports the summer born disadvantage hypothesis).

HTH.

It is not a question of agreeing or not agreeing with me @sunflower. The disadvantage in cognitive terms where tests like this are concerned, is inherent in this situation..fact not fantasy..or as you keep calling it, an excuse.
The fact that you keep avoiding this and repeatedly berate for not telling my child to suck it up..as well..that’s life, is neither helpful nor logical where this particular thread of conversation has been concerned.
My observation on the inherent unfairness in these two logical based competitions in particular, is what I have talked about all along...that in itself is indisputable and quite real. My suggestion from this, was to question whether it would be feasible for organisations or schools, to somehow level the playing field where they are concerned. As this is how ‘ability’ based educational assessments are generally measured. And they are measured like this..for a very valid reason.

@thehorseandhisboy Thank you so much for explaining this so well.
Flogging dead horses springs to mind..either that, or I’m just not explaining it very well!

thehorseandhisboy, I am not saying that the summer born disadvantage doesn't exist. But you say that you are an outlier, so you must know that this doesn't always apply to everyone, even if you were a summer born, so is OP's dd.

You are still missing the point. It doesn’t matter whether you are an able outlier or not. If children are not pitched fairly against each other in cognitive based assessments, the younger child is always disadvantaged..

This is the disadvantage with Bebras over other tests with more stringent age limits. There is no way a 12 yo who scored just 1 point above a 10 yo is ‘more academically able’. If a 12 yo can only manage such a tiny point increase over a child in primary school (when most 12 yo are already at secondary school and working at a higher level) then I would definitely be challenging it.

This is why 12 yo’s for grammar school have to take a 12+ test (13+ for older kids). They cannot be and should not be compared to 10/11 yos.

summer the very definition of outlier is that it doesn't apply to everyone.

The 'nearly everyone else' are the population which the outliers lay outside of. Hence the term.

Grumpy I think OP is talking about children in the same academic year, so months rather than years olders.

Mumto2two you're welcome. I find it frustrating when people can't grasp this concept, but maybe it is more difficult to understand than I think.

I still don't get it. As you can see. I seem to be very thick as you imply. Op talks about the child who has iq of 150 at age of 10 cannot be compared to the child who has iq of 150 at 11. Yet, do actual 2 children who has been picked because they scored better than her dd and who are only few months older than her dd has iq of 150 as well? They may not be as clever as her, but just good at logic or scored better this time. After all, it's only 1 mark. I really don't think there are many children who has iq of 150 in one school, let alone one single year group. So what is wrong with the children who done better than outlier children?

sun What the OP is suggesting is finding a way that the children who are inherently more capable but only scored fewer marks because of age difference still get the stretching experiences and the validation of the autumn born children.

ie Why should 'Autumn' who was born in September get to go through to bonus rounds when 'Summer' born in August doesn't, even though by the time Summer is the same age as Autumn is now she would actually score higher. Unfortunately the comps only run yearly not 10 monthly so by next year Summer will be in a higher age category and still the youngest and disadvantaged.

Its a bit like. Lets all do a test with no skill involved (eg throwing a dice 100 times and adding the total), but then give bonus points based on how many months old you are. On average older competitors will end up scoring higher even though the actual test has a mean of 300. A young competitor still might win as they might throw 100 sixes, but they are at an inherent disadvantage.

That probably hasn't helped at all.

sorry. too early in the morning. Mean of 350.

TeenPlusTwenties, I totally get what you mean. I am questioning the fact why she can be so sure she scored fewer marks(only 1 in op's dd's case), only because of the age difference. There are more factor than that, imo. Did she score 2 more marks in few months time when she is the same age as the older ones who scored 1 mark more, so she would have been chosen? I just think it's bit petty.

So it’s gone from being an excuse to just being petty?? You clearly have no idea what we are talking about, and seem intent on trying to antagonise and belittle a very real, albeit, small in the great big scheme of things..matter!
For the umpteenth umpteenth time, I am not talking about the myriad of other variables or disadvantages that can affect any given child in any school based situation, if I was to start trying to quantify that, my daughter’s health issues and lack of time in school..would have won on disadvantage hands down.
But what I, and thankfully others who understand, have been discussing; is a discrete, and very measurable discrepancy that is well known to exist. It is for this reason that large test providers standardise by year & month, in the way they do for tests such as 11+. So if my daughter at age 10 years 2 months, scores one point less than boys aged 11 years 2 months...there should be some way of recognising the cognitive disadvantage of the younger child. It’s a cognitive based test, high IQ strangely enough...generally equates with having good logic. So yes, I’d assume the other children are also very bright too. It’s not unusual for a prep school with a high number of high achieving kids, a lot of the parents are Oxbridge educated..to have a number of children with high IQs.
However, regardless of IQ...children should be cognitively assessed against children of the same age. One or two months may not be that significant, as any old 11plus table correlative will tell you..but this increases with the number of months, and one year is indeed sufficiently significant to make a big difference. My daughter’s score increased by 5 marks in one year, so yes, in another 6 months, she could score higher again..it’s a natural cognitive progression over time.

Mumto2two, I'm sorry to hear about your dd's ill health and operations. I hope that she's on the mend.

I completely get what you're saying, and I'm sorry that it's knocked your dd's already frail self-confidence.

I wish educators and those involved in education would take more account of the research about the detrimental effects to children of making so much of the school curriculum into a competition, but as long as there's profit to be made and the reputation of the school to uphold, that's a bit of a pipe dream!

Take care.

I think it will do good for you and your dd, if you admit there maybe other children who maybe cleverer than your child, instead of making excuses for her defeat every time. Dwelling on one defeat won't have positive effect on your dd. Forget about it and move on. And do something if you can, to change the system.
For dd being ill, I am sorry, but same here. My dc has chronic health issue too, living a very restricted life. But never thought of it as academic disadvantage, because being outlier doesn't make them behind at all, even with many absent days from school.

@sunflowerfield‘ admit there maybe other children who maybe cleverer than your child, instead of making excuses for her defeat every time. Dwelling on one defeat won't have positive effect’

While I appreciate you even taking the time to comment, it is still clear you do not understand the crux of this discussion at all. Firstly, neither I nor my daughter, are under any illusions as to whether there are brighter kids out there..we do have a healthy sense of realism in our lives..believe it or not. And secondly, bar my asking the question regarding logic based competitions on here..I can assure you, I am not dwelling on this, anymore to recognise that it is an inherent unfairness in that system.
Your comments evade the point every time. You clearly cannot understand what has been discussed. If an 11+ exam was administered without standardising, how do you think parents of summer born children would feel? Yes there would be some, like my daughter, for whom it would probably not matter in terms of qualifying or not; but for those where one or two points would have made a difference, then the summer born parent would have a very valid demand by way of redress. I’m sorry if this is all beyond your remit of understanding, but I and others on here, have tried.
As for chronic health issues not being a disadvantage...I am sorry, but you do not know my child and how much her health has affected her, so please do not even attempt to draw any correlation with that. I can assure you 50% attendance in one year, is by most educational standards..a disadvantage.

@thehorseandhisboy - I do agree, reputation and profit probably do have the biggest part to play here. Thank you for your kind words.

I had never heard of Bebras before today but I got an email to say Dd was in the top 10%. She’s year 11 at a state school and summer born. First time she’s done the test - it was sprung on them by the teacher one lesson. Is top 10% good? Can’t really see what it means on their website. A merit or distinction certificate perhaps?

In terms of tests, I was always impressed with CATS which took month of birth into consideration. Dds flew at these!

My pennies worth: I have 2 bright Dds both summerborn. I think the 2nd benefited by having ‘older’ academic stuff around her. The biggest disadvantages were social - not being able to drive (17) and then drinking (18) when all friends were have led to ‘why did you have me in the summer?’ Conversations

If your DC is real talent she can get better results than old ones. I know someone got in the Junior Bebras finals at 10.

I've never heard parents of children born around age cut off point (not summer in my country, so early spring born would be the most disadvantaged in my country.) complaining about it

British parents just like to moan. Also when they complain about MFL being compulsory. If kids in European countries can learn languages, so can British children.

Ditto about masks. In every other country people are getting on with wearing masks but in the UK everyone has a reason why they can't, because they are speshul.

There is "British exceptionalism" but it takes a different form to that normally supposed - we just moan. All. The. Time.

Apologies for coming late to this interesting thread. What I find striking is that month-of-birth effects are very strong.

For instance a well-regarded 2007 study (reference below) showed that August-born children in England score, on average, over half a standard deviation lower than their September-born counterparts in national achievement tests at age 7 years. That is a huge effect. What is also remarkable is that while this difference decreases over time is still significant even at age 16, when young people are making decisions about whether to stay on for post-compulsory education. The implication of this is that every cognitive test should be age-adjusted. There is no excuse and it's good to see that tests like the Wandsworth test for secondary school entrance do adjust for age.

Crawford C, Dearden L. Meghir C. Report. London: Centre for the Economics of Education; 2007. When you are born matters: the impact of date of birth on child cognitive outcomes in England

The other thing that you might find interesting is that in professional football (where my knowledge is much stronger) the Relative Age Effect has been big news for a while and huge amounts of energy and time (and money) has been spent on how to adjust for it. For those interested you can find more by searching for things like bio-banding.