Competitions and winter born advantage...

[Mumto2two]

In terms of competitions such as Bebras, Primary Maths challenge etc., it does seem that without any form of age adjustment, older children are clearly advantaged.
Our daughter is summer born, so at age 8 had a high merit on Bebras in the 8-10 category, and a high distinction at age 9. Clearly age has an impact..and now at 10 she has to compete against 12 year olds, which seems unfair.
Equally with the maths challenge. She scored one mark less than the 2 winter born kids who were chosen to go to bonus round, which also seems a little unfair. This must surely be a common theme where age is not differentiated in any way?

@Proggymat I am baffled by your questioning of this. I''m not sure you can understand what IQ means in this sense..and I mean that in the nicest possible way! A child of 3 can have an IQ of 150..as can a child of 11. But you would not be pitching one directly against the other? It is a measure of Intelligence quotient, as measured for that age...

@redandgreenplait ...Aim for a spring baby?? Do people actually plan for this? Funnily enough, all my pregnancies were 'unplanned', and with my youngest conceived at 42..the time of year didn't really ever come into it!

I can really see the difficulties being a small, left-handed summer born boy

I have two small, left-handed autumn born children. Surprised you think being left handed is an issue. I'm left handed and managed to do everything with right handed implements and am very good with my hands, my left handed children have left handed scissors etc.

Cut offs aren't as strict in other countries so you can hold your child back a year. What happens is that you get even bigger differential so the oldest children in a class are 18 months older than the youngest and often the oldest children are from more affluent and educated backgounds (who are aware of the research on the impact of age on academic performance and can absorb the cost of an additional year of paid childcare) so that difference is even further exaggerated.

" It would of course be impractical to do this for exams like GCSE, as there would need to be a definable ‘grade’ for the entire cohort. "

ok, then why did crips suggest it was feasible? I agree obviously that it's not reasonable. You can't say "for sept children a 9 is 75%, but for June children it's only 68%". That's if I am understanding standardisation. if I'm not, please explain.

i really think there comes a time to suck it up.

You can't spend your life excusing poorer performance by "well they are summer born". I get that it's tough, I'm sorry, but I'm sure your individual child (which is, after all, what we are kind of talking about) will do their best and achieve well. You get to the point where you have to let it go.

I also think "summer born" is a dangerous tag. ds1 struggled at school, oh, summer boy, said everyone. Turned out he has a very specific learning difficulty caused by a medical issue; I genuinely think that the summer born thing masked and obscured the issue, which wasn't diagnosed till he was about 13. I know that's a bit of a separate topic, but I do feel strongly that we need to be wary of hanging too much on that peg, if that makes any sense.

@clara ‘ok, then why did crips suggest it was feasible? I agree obviously that it's not reasonable. You can't say "for sept children a 9 is 75%, but for June children it's only 68%". That's if I am understanding standardisation. if I'm not, please explain’

That’s not how it works...I think you need to understand the mechanics of normal distribution and standard deviations from the mean etc etc, as this particular tangent is a little nonsensical. Suffice to say there would be no coherent logic in declaring Sept born Billy needs 80% to get a 9, and July born Milly needs 70% to get the same. There is far more to it than that...

You’re right, it’s not fair that she is up against people older than her, without adjustment.

However there are lots of other unfair differences that we don’t adjust for either. Should we adjust for the kid whose parents only spend 10 minutes a week doing homework with them rather than 3 hours? Should we adjust for the kid where English is their second language? For the left handed kid? For the kid who gets hayfever, or doesn’t do well in hot weather? For the kid who doesn’t sleep well? All these things are bad luck in the same way as your child’s summer birth date.

Adjustments have to stop somewhere. Being young in the year is relatively minor compared to some of the other unfairnesses that we don’t adjust for.

Instead of bemoaning her bad luck for being summer born, how about focusing on her good luck in being clever. That’s just luck too.

U r over thinking this...

Both DH and I went to school a year early. I went to a topoint uni and hot a 2st class degree.

DC1 is April born and top of her class academically. DC2 is June and top of his class.

You are getting too hung up on this think how complicated everything would be to make it age fair?

Eek typing on my phone gone mad... 1st class degree I meant...

How does it work then? Teen suggests there would be different marks needed to get the same grade for different birth months. Is that not correct? No doubt my version was an over simplification, but if people can't see the issue with requiring different percentages for the same grade, both in logistical and social terms, then I don't know what to say.

Agree also with others who make the point that there are many other factors for which we don't adjust, some of which may have more far reaching consequences.

My Spring born 10 year old came top in her school on the BEBRAS challenge this year, she scored in the 140s. I have no idea if that is also a merit as this is the first time her school has entered. The child who was second in the school scored in the 120s was a!so Spring born.

I am Summer born at what are do you think they should stop adjusting for me, there are lots of things that could effect people's abilities to learn, it is impossible to adjust for everything at school.

As said already other factors such as family background play a more important role in life than birth month. If your child is a girl you should worry about the gender pay gap more than birth month...

There is surely a limit to how many different maths Olympiad tests can be written, and if there were two per year group, would t you still be unhappy if your child was on the wrong side of one of those thresholds?

Alternatively, if one has the luxury and isn't battling infertility odds or some other challenge that makes worrying about this sort of thing ludicrous, don't have a summer baby. The research on this topic has been compelling for decades - certainly was clear enough to influence me when planning my first pregnancy well over 17 years ago.

Summer born boys are over represented in SEN identification.

I think you can't realistically say you are going to age adjust GCSEs.
But rather, primary schools could do more to even things up (more research into how to achieve this is probably needed).

I agree though that other things such as low income or social factors probably have more impact, which is why things like Pupil Premium exist, though that's a very broad brush.

I think summer borns have to suck up disadvantage in maths competitions for the benefit of their birthday being positioned nicely away from Christmas, and having good weather on their birthdays etc. .

I agree with everything you say regards ‘adjustment’ and the impossibility to account for all disparities between children within education and their progress in learning what they are taught in school. But I wasn’t talking about that in this context. That’s a whole different discussion, yes of course there are many factors that can affect a child’s outcome in life.
My point was purely related to logic based non-curricular competitions such as the ones I mentioned. There are no other parameters here that really matter. It is not a ‘taught’ skill. Kids can be top in the class at maths, but do mediocrely well at PMS. The maths knowledge required is quite basic...it is all about logic. As with Bebras...
For large organisations that run logic based, cognitive based competitions, and indeed the school itself, to not at least acknowledge that there is inherent unfairness in this approach, is all I was suggesting. To extend the summer born topic beyond this, is not what I had at all intended, but thank you, it’s been an interesting discussion!

@clary Re your post above...the below link from the Elevenplus forum is a good basic explanation of standardisation, and how it works for an exam like 11+ at least. Apologies if you’ve seen it all before. I can see why it’s confusing, it is the most misunderstood topic I’ve heard discussed in the playground at schools! Hope it helps

www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/advice/standardised-scores-an-explanation

CountFasco being left-handed is born out through research as being disadvantageous in the school system and beyond in many ways. It's not my individual perception that it's a disadvantage, but the conclusion of significant research.

There's lots of research about this, but this is an easy, quick read.
www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/14/left-handed-children-penalised-by-lack-of-support-in-uk-schools

Being a girl lessens the disadvantage (girl's thumb muscles develop at a faster rate, so on the whole, their writing develops faster).

Being autumn born lessens the disadvantage (as your thumb muscles are nearly a year more advanced than August born boys).

As I said earlier, the disadvantage is relative, but a primary school child can't understand this. All they can see is that their writing is slower and messier than other children who are in the same class but nearly a year older and have found learning to write easier because they're right-handed in a right-handed world.

As Teenplustwenties points out, summer born boys are over-represented on SEN registers largely because school systems don't age adjust and also because of the downward spiralling effect of low self-esteem, thinking you're thick etc.

This is made worse by people saying 'well, that hasn't happened to me or my children, so it can't be true'.

My son is top of his class in reading and maths but a summer born. I put this down to genes and training ;-). However he is physically very small compared to 90% of his classmates.

There are lots of unhelpful steroetypes (e.g. boys dont like reading). And as parents its our job to help our children (and other adults) through these.

Our daughter is a spring baby and also top of her class. She likes sports. Quite often there is a banding like 8-10 year olds. So the first year she is eight and will finish in the bottom 25%, the next year she is 9 and finishes in the middle - I tell her the first two years are practicing for the year when she is 10 and will be one of the oldest and tallest and know the course and can really push herself.

So according to the OP this would be 'unfair' for the 1st two years. Do I expect the race organiser to have a separate race for each year or d!ck about with the results so that its age adjusted and becomes meaningless.

Some things in life are 'unfair' and as parents its our job to prepare our children for this and not to change the world to bend to our children's needs... you need to suck this up.. as said you have the advantage of sunny birthdays no where near Xmas. Enjoy them.

@Raspberry - for fear of sounding like a broken record on here...I am not and have never been making any reference to sport!
According to OP?? I am only talking about cognitive function and logic based competitions....I do wish people would stop extrapolating the discussion to make inferences that just aren’t there
But thank you...and yes I do agree with what you are saying regards sport and choosing teams etc...I don’t have any issue with that

Raspberry123 age standardisation doesn't work on the basis of 'oh my child is summer born and really clever, so no summer born children are disadvantaged, they're just not genetically gifted and don't work hard enough'.

Age standardised scoring - which the OP is talking about - looks at large cohorts, maps trends, then adjusts scores.

It's much more complex than August born children 'being given extra marks' (this doesn't happen btw).

OP's central point, that her summer born child child is disadvantaged in regards being picked for the maths challenge as she is months younger than the children who scored one mark higher, which she probably would be able to do if she sat the test in a number of months time, but that isn't how selection works as the school choose the children who did best NOW, is a good one.

The related point, that it may not be a big deal in the grand scale of things, but it is to her daughter is an extremelyimportant one.

If you look at growth mindset research (which is substantial), this system could be seen to actively discourage summer born children from developing it as the 'not yet' is irrelevant as the criteria for not being selected is 'not now.'

The effect this has on individual children will of course vary, but it's fairly basic educational psychology that being rewarded (by being chosen) reinforces the child's decision to try for a test which will influence their future choices, self-perception and attitudes, while the reverse is also true.

I've always been an academic outlier, which gives me the intelligence to recognise that my experience is exactly that. It's not the 'norm' nor should it be used as a basis for formulating any sort of norm.

@thehorseandhisboy Thank you...you have explained my point succinctly. Seemingly much better than I have!

It’s frustrating constantly being told that my Johnny is top in his class and he’s summer born etc etc. As that was not my point here.
My daughter regularly comes top in her year group of 60...and in standardised progress tests is always 141..maximum standardised score in those tests. She’s doing well and we are happy about that. I’m summer born and was placed up a year in childhood, as I was considered bright for my year...but I doubt my IQ is all that amazing. There are just so many other factors where education and learning are concerned, but my point regarding these particular cognitive based tests..and the disappointment of a child for whom they actually do matter...seems to have been lost on many. Thanks for your comment

I totally get the point but its better to prepare your child for the 'unfairness' of life than spending time on this. I totally get that its not 'fair' but in the grand scale its small beer. I understand its important and demotivating for the child but you have to try to steer them through that. :-)

Raspberry123 it's the 'but' in your last sentence that shows that you don't actually get Mumto2twos point.

She is doing everything she can to steer her child to recognise her ability, support her self-confidence etc, but she cannot be responsible for what her child regards as important nor can she make her child not feel demotivated.

It's not small beer to her child as OP has explained very clearly more than once (or any child who finds themselves the victim of structural disadvantage), for the reasons I gave above (see growth mindset paragraph).

The problem is systematic and structural, with no 'fair' solution. Of course the school will choose the children with the two highest scores at the moment.

OP's point is that her daughter would (very likely) be one of those children if she had been born six months earlier, and her birthday nor anyone else's can't be changed.

It is a well known psychological phenomenon that people regard processes as 'fair' when they come off favourably, regardless of whether the statistical odds were stacked against them or not.

In fact the statistical odds being stacked against them makes them see the process as even more 'fair', rather than recognise that they are an outlier in a system with inbuilt structural advantages/disadvantages.

And yes, the research about 'school performance' and its extremely tentative links to IQ and intelligence are interesting, but not if you want to believe that your child does well as school because they are just naturally 'really clever'.

@Raspberry - I do agree, and it certainly hasn’t warranted any more than the ‘well done’ conversation we had..because she still did do very well...all things considered.
It’s been a really precarious year for her..ill health, 2 operations and another coming up..serious self-esteem issues for which we have had the school involved. In her mind she is inadequate in some way...she did rubbishly because she didn’t get picked. She was suffering with a badly swollen face the day she took the test..but of course that’s just another variable, but happens to be one she regularly has to deal with. And on the back of missing out on this accolade..has refused to put herself forward for an inter school maths competition coming up. There can be so many repercussions in terms of child psychology, and I’m sure there is a vast expanse of discussion that can be had on that..perhaps not today

But as a cohort the stats show that summer borns are disadvantaged over autumn borns in terms of GCSE results

When we had our children we never thought we'd end up in Wales - in Wales many exams are sat early - there are assessment that count first term in yr10 and exams in January yr10 as well at end of yr 10.

It seems to exacerbate the problem with 14 sitting exams meant for 16 or nearly 16-year olds.

Obviously as supportive parents we've encouraged our kids and put in support where needed where they have had problems and they look like they will do well – but I do wonder about a system that relies so heavily on parents overcoming such problems rather than accounting for them.

Fair and unfair is hard to account for. Our summer born children struggled with many things one of them maths – we do have skills to help but at the time were time poor so turned to website and they spent years doing extra work and getting better and better.

There were a series of maths tests and our late summer girl did well another parent complained because they found out our child did maths outside school.

In fact entire top group had all done extra maths with someone – tutor, website, parent, grandparent or step parent and where more solid in understanding and further along in math – sometimes done because like our child they’d struggled other because they loved maths.

Parent’s who complain child was autumn born boy who’d always been good at maths and had never had to do any extra – and parent wasn't in position to help them with maths.

I don't think this autumn/summer born issue will affect very long, it is normally evened up around Y3. Beside the date of born, some children mature earlier, some will be late. It will be hard to try to adjust for all.

Back to the OP's post, I actually think it is healthy for child to know they won't win every time. There are always some one is more clever, more hard working out there. It doesn't matter to lose just by 1 mark.