'Less harsh' marking for GCSE German and French

[StaronAinthorpe]

Interesting news. Clearly many other problems to overcome with languages teaching though.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-50293286

And comparisons with Biology! how? DCs have been sitting GCSEs for the last 2 years does anyone honestly think that they sit round the dinner table going through the A level Biology syllabus with mummy?

This made me laugh as my dd is doing A-level biology.

Having parents who are scientists might mean that a primary school aged child knows more than average about science but A-level biology isn't really dinner table conversation- do you think the parents are drawing diagrams of chemical structures on a white board by the dinner table?

My DD's best friend's mum is a doctor and they don't discuss medical stuff at the dinner table. (Dd has been round lots) Conversation is just normal stuff like school, Netflix etc

I believe that playing an instrument is a pre-requisite of GCSE Music (happy to be corrected here) I don't know if playing multiple instruments is advantageous though?

There’s a reason why universities (a lot of them) haven’t made a change to requirements for young people with speakers at home. Has no impact on performance, at all

Whether universities regard "home language" qualifications differently depends on what course it is and why they are valuing a foreign language. If the degree (and the kind of career that candidates are expected to go into) is unrelated to the language in any way, most universities do regard "home language" qualifications differently, because their main reason for valuing a MFL is that it is seen as a mark of "academic seriousness" in a candidate, and taking GCSEs and A-Levels in a language at the standards ages even though you had a big head start does not involve as much work or challenge as doing the language "from scratch " would. (Of course, it's different if the language is beneficial for practical purposes---like Arabic if you are going to go into a field of work where that is going to be useful.)

Of course growing up speaking a language at homeor even being passively bilingualgives you a big advantage.

It is of course true that an A-level requires things like studying literature which most "home language speakers" will have to actively study as well--nobody is denying that an A-level will demand work from a "home language" candidate as well. But if you already have a decent grasp of the syntax and grammar and phonetic system (and of course, the ability to "listen" effortlessly), this frees up huge amounts of headspace for studying literature and culture and formal language. Similarly, yes of course "home language" users are often somewhat lacking in the more formal and abstract language. But if you've already acquired a decent vocabulary of a few thousand words, you've then got lots of time and energy available for mastering the more complex vocabulary, while the starting-from-scratch foreign language learners are still slogging away trying to memorize the more basic vocabulary.

We are a bilingual family as are most of our friends here, so I'm very much aware that home language learners have to work hard to improve their language skills (as do their parents). But it's so silly to claim that they are not starting off from a hugely advantageous position.

I believe that playing an instrument is a pre-requisite of GCSE Music (happy to be corrected here) I don't know if playing multiple instruments is advantageous though?

Playing an instrument or being able to sing to approx Grade 3 Level (you get extra credit for playing or singing at Grade 4/5 and difficulty marks deducted if you only perform at Grade 1/2 level). That's for GCSE. There is absolutely no advantage in being able to play a 2nd instrument although some keyboard skills are useful for composition etc

I think most A level exam boards expect students to be around Grade 6.

Not all A-level languages include literature or speaking. The European ones may but more minority languages assess listening comprehension instead.

@oreomum I think you will find the new spec ones do. Dd narrowly missed A* in French and German this year, largely thanks to the listening and translation papers, one of which included an idiom, so not only testing translation skills but also specific cultural reference. Her teacher felt that she was harshly marked in translations as she had got the sense of some phrases if not with 100% accuracy yet got no credit. Another multilingual candidate with a German speaking parent got an A with minimal revision.

The universities also examine knowledge of culture. This comes up in translation papers. That’s another advantage for DC with excellent knowledge of culture and customs from that country. For the standard student it’s very much hit or miss if you know about the cultural aspect in the translation. My DD has a question about Greek Gods in one of her MFL papers. Needless to say, few answered that question. Most wouldn’t gamble!

Universities do not know what career a MFL student will do afterwards. My DD became a barrister. Her university didn’t care or know what she wanted to do. I guess if you do translation then they might guess but even then DDs friends who did translation modules didn’t stick with it after graduation. There should be much greater investigation of background and where there is no culture in a family of the country or language, these DC should get higher marks! They have to work harder.

My son got an 8 for Spanish GCSE and is doing it for A level. Rather than being put off by the (one) native speaker in his class he says his Spanish is improving rapidly and particularly feels that his pronunciation is getting better due to having her in the class (and his teacher is a native speaker which no doubt also plays a role). But he sees it as a positive thing. And if he does end up with a B instead of an A at A level, I'd not regard that as a negative as a language is a real skill that is useful for the rest of your life even if you don't carry it on to university.

I raised the question of higher grades for native speakers with his teacher and she said it doesn't always follow as they have to do the cultural work too and so they can't just turn up without attending the classes and get an A*. Recently she had someone get a D because he did no work!

There should be much greater investigation of background and where there is no culture in a family of the country or language, these DC should get higher marks! They have to work harder

Not always. I've said this before on here, but my MFL A level was my easiest. I never thought for a minute I'd get less than a grade B. I had no family connections with the country at all, but went on three exchange trips during my sixth form years.

And I still think you can have a massive advantage in other subjects eg if a parents is a Maths or science teacher (or lecturer).

Indeed ds has an advantage because we are both history buffs and he is doing history so we can discuss lots of things with him. Sadly though I have the wrong language knowledge to help him with Spanish (though having GCSE Italian helps quite a lot).

And comparisons with Biology! how? DCs have been sitting GCSEs for the last 2 years does anyone honestly think that they sit round the dinner table going through the A level Biology syllabus with mummy

no but if they are stuck on something they can ask the parent!

Asking when you are stuck isn’t the same as being nurtured from birth in another language though. The DC who have this advantage have to do less work as they can just rock up and do speaking and listening. Very little work would be required. They therefore can spend more time on the other elements. They don’t have to work on the accent do they?

I do agree that essay skills might not be so good, or skill in ansmysing texts, but vocabulary will be better and translation will be easier.

Analysing texts....

When did you sit A level havingtochange? Some time ago I expect as your DS is now sitting A levels. A level languages are a very different beast to what I, and I expect you, sat many years ago.It's only become a problem over the last ten years, the statistics are easily available on google and it's been reported widely in the Guardian.

Your DS has the only MFL teacher I have heard of who thinks it isn't a problem which is why MFL secondary school teachers and the entire academic world of MFL are lobbying for changes. It will be interesting to see if your opinion changes if your DS misses his AAA offer because he gets a B or even a C for his language course. Even getting a C grade requires a lot of work. It all sounds so simple at this stage, oh I'll be happy enough with a B but a missed uni offer will be a very different experience.

I am not claiming that native speakers don't have any advantage. I am saying that there are children in many other subjects too who have an advantage.

I am also saying that 'advantage' in this case is not a clear cut. My children don't speak their second language at native speaker level. They speak it with a very good accent, but terrible grammar, can't write it and can't read it at an age appropriate level. It takes any native speaker about 2-3 sentences to figure out that they are in fact not native speakers. In their MFL class are a few other children with native speaking parents. None of them can speak the language at true native speaker level. My kids have about the same advantage as in music, since they have been playing instruments for 6 years.

Are people saying that A-Level MFLs are harder due to native speakers who will gain the top grades; or us it that they’re marked harder?

DS did IGCSEs last summer. Nobody was aware that languages were harder? The paper considered most challenging was the Maths Paper 2 which was crazy. I think someone said 35% was a “9” for that. I think it would freak out a lot of capable students.

History IGCSE was a lot of content too and very specific in the way you had to answer the questions to actually make sure you gained marks.

The native speakers of a language at DS’ school took a different GCSE for native speakers / bi- linguals and it’s was generally in years 9 or 10.

@rioja00 the way the mark scheme is applied and the weighting given to translation/listening plays to the strengths of native speakers, or those even with passive exposure to the language. The grade boundaries are high and narrow. As a result over time relatively fewer non native speakers have taken it up especially since the demise of AS, and that decline has resulted in fewer mfl teaching posts and subject availability.

I am interested in this idea that children won't take A Level because of their chances of getting top grades.

Who tells them this?

No idea Piggywaspushed I am a fool who encouraged my DC to take 2 MFL at A level because he is good at languages. I am obviously behind the times despite being in education myself.

A native speaker who already knows the language should sit an Int A level for native speakers of that language.

This is surely going too far in the other direction--most home language speakers are not going to have the same language skills as an 18yo in (say) France who has been in the French education system full-time for 12 years. Most home language learners are somewhere in between "person who learned the language from scratch in their teens" and "fully grade-level user of the language."

I think studying the equivalent of an A-level IN the target language would be an amazing learning experience, but the candidate is probably going to get a low grade. It might be worth doing as an extra qualification outside of school, but not as part of the main "set" that they are doing in school and which universities are primarily looking.

I live in a part of the world where the default modern language is Mandarin. The children choose to sit one of 3 Mandarin iGCSEs according to their appropriate language level - Mandarin as a Native Language, Second Language or Foreign Language. This seems like a pretty reasonable solution. I'm an Oxbridge modern linguist so am quite intrigued by this. Also, it's hard to argues against the advantages for native speakers on the language side of things (though there are also plenty of native speakers who find writing really tough and can't spell), however when it comes to the literature side it's much more level and about your critical appreciation. Native speakers can struggle here as the essays are in English. I saw quite a few native speakers tack on their language to a different degree programme so they could get a double first, but they were in the minority back in the day.

Looks like you can do iGCSEs for
French - First Language - 0501
French - Foreign Language - 0520
German - First Language - 0505
German - Foreign Language - 0525

www.cambridgeinternational.org/programmes-and-qualifications/cambridge-upper-secondary/cambridge-igcse/subjects/

This strikes me as the most reasonable solution for GCSEs too.

That sounds like a great system. Can iGCSEs easily be studied in state schools in the UK?

iGCSEs cannot be taken in state schools in the UK, only private. My ds did iGCSES, but he attended an international school. It's a much fairer system as is the IB where language courses differentiate between native and non-native speakers.

I do understand that iGCSEs can't be done in state schools, but my point was just that maybe instead of relaxing the marking they should be considering introducing this tiered language approach into the GCSE system too.

I agree-it makes sense.