'Less harsh' marking for GCSE German and French

[StaronAinthorpe]

Interesting news. Clearly many other problems to overcome with languages teaching though.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-50293286

[sashh]

However he is only predicted As which he is having to work extremely hard for (far harder than his other subject). The girl who is a native speaker in one of his subjects is predicted A. In another subject, he would easily be getting As for his level of competency so whilst As are good, it still pisses me off that his talents aren't recognised in MFL as they would be in other subjects.

But A Levels test competence not effort.

Native speakers are not always at an advantage, if your parents speak to you in a dialect or don't have good grammar themselves then it can be like learning a new language.

There can be problems with other subjects. Many years ago I taught a girl who had passed 10 GCSEs but got a D in English, this meant she had to use one of her A Level slots for GCSE English language.

She had arrived in the UK aged 14 without a word of English. IMHO she should have been able to take a GCSE in English as an additional language or the universities should not penalise her for only having 3 A Levels (This was the days most people started with 4 subjects and dropped one after AS Level).

[DonkeyHotty]

I know a boy who got a 7 last year in GCSE French. Apparently with chuff all revision. I deduced from that that it is piss easy to pass / get a good grade if you’re a native speaker, but if you want to excel you need to regurgitate the exam syllabus.

[DonkeyHotty]

Sorry I was meant to say he was a NATIVE FRENCH SPEAKER who had just moved to the uk a year before!

[eggofmantumbi]

These changes won't go far enough in my opinion. The reading and listening papers in particular are just so difficult and much more difficult that the old spec. they discourage our brightest students from taking a level because they feel there is 50% of the qualification they can't do. Content needs a review too, but as usual they've chosen ALCAB to do that, rather than teachers. 🙄

[Piggywaspushed]

derbur, don't worry, mine take it , too!

I do wonder where the 'languages are so hard' discussion comes from that puts perfectly bright students off. I m not at all disputing the finding. I just wonder how your standard 17 year old gets that off putting information. Most parents aren't massively well informed . they would put German among 'hard subjects' but not necessarily any harder than others they would call hard.

I do think the answer may well be teachers. My impression is MFL teachers do, on the whole, spend the two/three years of GCSE telling students how hard languages are. Certainly at my own sixth form info evening there wasn't an awful lot of recruiting spiel and enthusiasm.

Many MFL teachers are native speakers : I think that may be why many students think languages are only for people who speak the language fluently.

It's a very complicated issue.

Certainly many top universities are now asking for 'at least a B' in a language, in amongst ABB /AAB offers, which is a step in the right direction for the meantime. However, if DCs do MFL A Level and then apply for another degree (eg law) there offer isn't changed, of course, to reflect the 'harshly marked' A Level and that is where one would sense a disadvantage.

Notwithstanding, my DS2 is now scrabbling around trying to find a local school where he can actually study a language A Level.

The slide from the old GCSE to A level was interesting for my DS1. He did the old 'easier' Spanish GCSE and got full marks. In the new style 'harder' A Level he got a C. Not sure that would happen in most A Level subjects. That said, he was pretty lazy,and the paper that he mucked up was the lit paper, not the speaking or writing. We live in the stick, however : no native speakers in his class.

[ChloeDecker]

The Fischer Family Trust analysed exam data comparing difficulty in achieving top grades compared to English and Maths and MFL came out on top. This sparked the discussion with the government to tackle this issue and hence the announcement to look at the grade boundaries.

This does mean now that Computer Science has come out on top and I wonder what they will do to tackle that recruitment crisis!

ffteducationdatalab.org.uk/2019/09/are-some-qualifications-scored-too-generously/

[testing987654321]

Dd wanted to study a language but ended up regretting it as she got a 6 for French but got 8/9 for everything else.

Hopefully in time she will realise the benefits of having studied a language are greater than another 8 or 9 in an easier subject.

I know which would impress me more as an employer.

[Comefromaway]

Well her other option other than French was Geography. She was exceptionally good at Geography but dropped it in favour of French. She regrets that now.

I don't think any of her subjects were easy. She took Maths, 2 x English, triple science, RS, French & Music. She's now studying English Lit, RS/Philosophy & Ethics & Dance.

[cakeisalwaystheanswer]

Piggy - in my DCs schools the MFL dept warn them. They are selective schools and will be looking for RG uni places typical average offer AAA so they need to know that if they don't need the language it may be better to take a different subject they can get a better grade for. Having had DCs in London day schools the problem soon becomes apparent because when you start a language A level you quickly become aware that most people around you are native speakers. It's great at first because they correct the teachers, which is always funny, and it's someone to practice speaking with. But the harsh reality that they will be taking all the top grades and it isn't a level playing field soon sinks in. In DD's school they have already dropped to 3 A levels and only about a quarter of those continuing with languages are not native speakers, and some of those are already regreting the choice.

I read all the denials of any advantage on this thread with amusement, it is an acknowledged problem, OFQUAL have reported on it, some A level boundaries have been adjusted to allow for it but by nowhere near enough because the drop in numbers has meant that the problem has snowballed very quickly. There is a huge ongoing effort by MFL academics who must be looking at the shortage of applicants in despair. The number sitting A level French has fallen from 13k in 2010 to 8k in 2018. When you factor in that many sitting now are not learning the French langauge but are French and may choose to return to France post Brexit that should scare the hell out of a country looking to trade with Europe where after Brexit French is expected to become the main business language.

[sendsummer]

I have some sympathy with native or partial native speaker DCs doing A levels in their family language as it may be the only way to continue learning written skills in that language. However from posts in other threads, including from a Spanish poster very recently, they seem to regard it mainly as an easy gain for A level grades.
I agree that a system like the iGCSE or IB would be best. There would still be some though like yolande’s DCs who would not be competent enough for a native speaker syllabus but have an advantage for a MFL one.

[rioja00]

To be honest, this is the first time I’m hearing about MFL being more harshly marked that other subjects. I was just looking at the GCSE results from DS’ school this summer riser what happened . Although the grades are very good because it’s that kind of school (London Day School), it does indeed seem like a lower proportion were getting the top grades in languages than in other subjects? In subjects like English and History and some sciences they were getting over 50% “9s” by the look if it, But for MFL it falls to maybe in the 40% ish (sorry that’s very rough, maths not a strong point for me). This was IGCSE though - does the same apply? Certainly there was no awareness that MFL were “harder” in terms of grade boundaries. No teacher ever told them this.

[DonkeyHotty]

I think iGCSE is easier though, is it not? A 9 in an MFL from a non-native speaker is pretty rare - those results are v impressive!

[rioja00]

I don’t think IGCSE is “easier” no. For most subjects, there’s apparently 30% more syllabus, so schools choose it because it’s supposed to be “broader” and “more rigorous.” Not sure how grade boundaries compare though, but these would differ between the various GCSE boards anyway. Also year to year. Grade boundaries are determined by the top x% of pupils anyway, whichever board it is.

[ChloeDecker]

This was IGCSE though - does the same apply?

Not in the data that was collated and analysed, which brought about the current decision. IGCSEs are different in a number of ways that will affect an MFL subject, bluntly due to more international students taking them. They were not included in the Ofqual discussions, as a result.

[ChloeDecker]

For most subjects, there’s apparently 30% more syllabus, so schools choose it because it’s supposed to be “broader” and “more rigorous.”

Not true. Sorry.

[rioja00]

It doesn’t really matter whether sits IGCSE, AQA or Edexcel tbh because schools would just make sure they teach to that syllabus and the overall results wouid be the same.

As far as I’m aware, no students getting 9s or 8s in MFL French, German, Spanish or Mandarin were native speakers. Bilinguals did a different exam for in Year 9 or 10 and they had different preparation for that.

[cakeisalwaystheanswer]

DS1 sat 2 old language IGCSEs and 1 old GCSE, there was a huge difference. He sat the old GCSE in Y11 as a "challenge" after 9 months of study and everyone got an A* despite actually knowing very little of the language. They sat the GCSE because it was much easier as they could never cover the IGCSE language syllabus in less than a year. DS1's old school still sits the challenge language in a year but the results look very different now the GCSE has been reformed!

DD sat one language new IGCSE and one new GCSE last year because the school were working around the oral timings and wanted to get them all completed before Easter. There is no discernible difference now between the level of the exams she sat except one (can't remember which) has a translation into English but they are "give me" marks. It was the same prep, same topics and having worked equally hard for each of them DD got exactly the same grade in both.

[insalaco]

What I am finding interesting here is that MFL GCSEs are allegedly marked harshly, yet Modern Languages feature on the list of easiest Oxbridge courses to get into:
I go back to my original point. Who would object to having native/second/foreign language alternatives for at GCSE? This would take care of most of the issues:

we live in a part of the world where the default modern language is Mandarin. The children choose to sit one of 3 Mandarin iGCSEs according to their appropriate language level - Mandarin as a Native Language, Second Language or Foreign Language. This seems like a pretty reasonable solution. I'm an Oxbridge modern linguist so am quite intrigued by this. Also, it's hard to argues against the advantages for native speakers on the language side of things (though there are also plenty of native speakers who find writing really tough and can't spell), however when it comes to the literature side it's much more level and about your critical appreciation. Native speakers can struggle here as the essays are in English. I saw quite a few native speakers tack on their language to a different degree programme so they could get a double first, but they were in the minority back in the day.

Looks like you can do iGCSEs for
French - First Language - 0501
French - Foreign Language - 0520
German - First Language - 0505
German - Foreign Language - 0525

[cakeisalwaystheanswer]

insalaco - I am very old and when I was young A level literature essays were written in English. That is no longer the case they are now written in French/Spanish/whatever.

I have no idea when it changed.

[eggofmantumbi]

But @insalaco there isn't literature on the GCSE syllabus- is pure language.

The difficulty with having a separate GCSE for natives and non natives is deciding who sits what paper.

[StanleySteamer]

I'm a native English born ex-French teacher. In my experience, native French speakers have a big advantage in Listening Comprehension, quite some advantage in Reading Comprehension, little advantage in grammar and spelling, in fact they are often at a disadvantage if they have not done GCSE, and although their spoken language is usually fluent they often cannot see the line to be drawn between slang and classical French. Also they still have to actually answer the questions and prepare properly. I have had arrogant students who simply would not accept how poor their written French was, and one who sticks in my mind as her oral, although perfectly spoken and in accurate French, did not relate what she was talking about to French Culture which was what it was supposed to do, depite all the questions I asked her trying to get her "on topic". This really had an effect on her grade which should have been an A back in the days before A*. And incidentally, native speakers who study literature have to work nearly as hard as non-native speakers as the subject matter is more to do with the literature than the language.

Make a GCSE hard, or mark it too rigorously, do the same with the A level, then who can wonder that few take it up for a degree and fewer still become teachers. It is a vicious circle as MFL are difficult subjects to teach and most teachers have to have two languages to get a job. Or they used to. Maybe now with the paucity of MFL teachers employers are not so fussy. All my colleagues bar one were native speakers, in the latter part of my career.

So anything that encourages the take up of MFL, a really necessary skill for the improvement of international trade and working, is a good thing. (By the way, the UK is in a minority, more than 50% of people in the world speak two languages or dialects or more., true of Europe too, article is a bit old but probably still fairly accurate www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/life-bilingual/201011/bilingualisms-best-kept-secret)

[Piggywaspushed]

The thing that they really should also care about is how much advantage is now being passed on to elite students at elite public schools, mainly in London.

On a different thread an OP asks whether her DC should supplement his currently studied French and Latin with either German, Russian, Mandarin or something else!!

If most state schools cannot run A Levels in straightforward subjects like German or Spanish or French and are cutting back at GCSE, and yet other schools offer five or six languages, this is just going to widen the educational divide.

It wasn't that OP's intention , of course, but that made me so frustrated, given my languages loving DS may not be able to do A Level Spanish, so won't do it at uni and then won't , possibly, become an MFL teacher.

[BeerMoth]

My DC loved languages (sat 2 a GCSE) but at her selective school the GCSE and A level MFL results lagged noticeably behind other subjects. Her teachers were not native speakers. She sat her AS in one and achieved an A but with it required far more work than for her other subjects as she could see how high the grade boundaries were. She then dropped it for A2 exactly this reason.
As long as offers for top unis are based on A level grades irrespective of subject, there will be parents who encourage their child to take the easy road to the detriment of the prospects of non-native students and the state of MFL teaching in general.

My understanding is not that MFL are marked more harshly per se, but that in England the boundary-setting by the GCSE/ A level boards take into account the KS2 performance of the cohort taking the particular subject and so, in practice, the number of high grades 'available' as predicted by the cohort analysis is limited. This means the bulge at the upper end of the distribution curve of rzw marks is likely to be the native speakers who will get high marks. I expect that exam marks of other subjects show far more of a normal distribution.
The bright hard-working students without this advantage have slightly lower raw marks and the narrow high boundaries caused by this bulge vs the expected performance of the cohort squeezes them out of the top grades.
My DC avoided MFL full A level, got her high grades and now studies MFL outside her degree as her uni offers subsidised and free MFL classes for interested students.
Unless the powers that be take their heads out of the sand (this announcement does not really address the problem it just shifts the boundaries a little) MFL will continue its freefall.