Study A level maths at home to free up time for other subjects at school?

[Star555]

DS is very bright and motivated and studies advanced maths (A level content) at home during GCSE years, does very well in maths olympiad, etc. He is going to a top independent school with a 6th form which offers a plethora of A level subjects that interest him. At his school usually bright students who want to pursue science/engineering at uni will take up to 5 A level subjects, 2 of which will be maths and further maths. DS thinks using up 2 slots for maths/FM will be a waste of time since he already knows most of the material now and can just revise for the exams at home on his own in the coming years, and maths doesn't involve practical work, trips to historic sites, etc that he would be missing out on. (I myself have postgraduate degree in engineering and can guide him in maths if need be.) He is very interested in humanities as well as science so his ideal A level subject choices at school would be Physics, Chemistry, Computer Science, Latin, and History. Does this sound like a feasible idea? Should I let his school know in advance that he will revise for the maths/FM exams at home and just take the exam at the end? Is there a chance the school may look unfavourably upon this and insist he must do maths at school to take the A level exams? In general is it common for students at top schools to take A level exams for subjects they studied at home instead of in school, assuming there was no coursework requirement for the A level? Thank you for any advice.

Ask admissions tutors for clarity.

Yes - it's easy enough to find email addresses on the uni websites, he should do this.

But before that, what does his school advise? They know his abilities and how he performs relative to other pupils, and I'd assume have a lot of experience.

I can see where you and he are coming from, btw, I think it's a shame that A levels are geared to depth at the expense of breadth and there's too much emphasis on grades as a means to an end, rather than learning as an end in itself. But there is a danger he spreads himself too thin, and while he may enjoy history and Latin lessons there are only so many hours in the day for all the homework and coursework. On that, I don't know what the structure of the comp sci A level is but I assume it still must have a significant project work component which I'd guess takes significant time outside of lessons. He might develop his coding skills sufficiently by the hobby route - and it may benefit his personal development to be involved in leading coding or robotics clubs in the sixth form.

He realises that at uni he will no longer be able to take these humanities classes

Could he consider St Andrews as well? I believe that in Scottish universities you study a broader range of modules before specialising in your subject area. I am happy to be corrected on this.

Further at a point when he is applying to uni they will probably not agree to predicting grades which may be important if he wishes to pursue a degree which requires Maths A levels.

I agree that this ^^ may be a sticking point. Without predicted grades for maths/FM he won’t be able to apply for any degree that requires those subjects. Why can’t your son study maths/FM, physics and chemistry at school and follow his interest in humanities subjects as a hobby in his own time?
And he will need to sit his A levels all at the same time.

One option might be to let him do the humanities classes at school "for fun" but not actually do the exams at the end

If he is taking 4 subjects already I doubt that these can be timetabled. And don’t forget there will be MAT and STEP exams as well for Oxbridge/Warwick.

How come there are so many parents of maths geniuses on Mumsnet?

I am completely lost for words😮

Why does he not want to pursue the IB route - or is it just that he doesn't want to change schools

At dgds school they say 15 hours a week study outside of school lessons for each A level minimum. That's 105 hours at least to do 7 A levels study without school lessons. More if he studies math and further math at home. Has he got one of those time watches like Hermione in Harry Potter? ( Joke)

Would he consider broadening his horizons with regard to university to look at something like the UoB Liberal Arts and Sciences degree?

www.birmingham.ac.uk/undergraduate/courses/liberal-arts/liberal-arts-and-sciences.aspx#CourseDetailsTab

5 A levels is fucking madness and not required !

At dgds school they say 15 hours a week study outside of school lessons for each A level minimum

Are you sure @Sostenueto? DD was told an hour self study per taught hour. When she was doing 4 subjects that was 20 hours a week of lessons and 20 hours of self study.

Oh I meant 5 hours a week extra outside taught lessons per A level silly me! That is still 35 hours a week for 7 A levels. And tbh that still might not be enough for those A*.
But the question I don't understand is why would anyone want to do 7 A levels when only 3 is required (4 is great) by universities? I would appreciate someone explaining that!

@Ginfordinner - ha ha How come there are so many parents of maths geniuses on Mumsnet?

If it helps I am not one - DS was competent but not talented at Maths

OP I really would not go down this route - but as stated I do not have a math's genius on my hands.

If he is interested in Oxbridge or another interviewing university they will probably want to see interest and exploration over and above ticking the exam box. I would work backwards from what he is thinking of studying and do those at school. If he is at a good school - even if he thinks he has covered the syllabus I would amazed if a teacher could not stretch him .

I would choose 4 or max 5 and the others self teach or get a tutor in and see how it goes , then if workload gets too much can be dropped.

This may be a naughty comment to make as I am not a teacher not a university interviewer & maybe I am blinkered and your son is just brilliant but my thought is - if someone came to me to talk about a place for a maths related subject & said - I thought I knew it all after GCSEs having read up on it and taken the A level exams I might be thinking - well would you not appreciate being with teachers with whom you could discuss maths. Now maybe that is too prosaic and blinkered a view & you may have a brilliant maths maverick on your hands but before deciding ( & please don't listen to me ) I would take other posters sensible advice and speak to school or indeed if he is set on Oxbridge ( which may not happen ) speak to university admissions tutors - they are so helpful in most cases and see what they think.

There is absolutely no benefit to doing more than 4, but a very real risk of spreading oneself too thin. Sadly lots of people find this out the hard way. I assume he will be doing AS levels? Remember for oxbridge that ums is important - they will be looking for close to 100 ums, especially with STEM subjects. If 4 subjects leave him with free time then use it on hobbies or non academic activities whichwill naje him grow as a person

5 A levels is fucking madness and not required !

Not true. I did 4.5 and still worked 20+ a week and had plenty of time to go out drinking (all science and maths stuff and not nearly as brainy as OPs son)
I don’t know how it works these days but could he do 4 plus maths in the first year (sit maths after a year) and then finish the 4 plus further maths in the second year? That would be do-able easily from his point of view if the school could accomodate? It may not be an option- I did a levels a long time ago!

If your 'long time ago' was before 2000, then it would be much the same. If you did them in the AS years, very, very different.

The school might teach one then the other, or both concurrently (practice varies), but the bottom line is that these are key subjects for the university courses he is interested in.

Being able to do some A level content when in years 10 or 11 isn't that uncommon amongst boys who kangaroo or make the olympiad. It does not mean they are capable of self-studying the whole of both A levels, especially alongside the (seriously unusual these days) number the school will let him sit.

What sort of enrichment programme does the school offer it's best mathematicians?

Tvstar AS levels have been dropped by most schools these days. I think they still sit them in Wales though.

All A levels are now linear.

There seem to be two issues here.
The first is him not wanting to give up History and Latin, subjects he wants to keep enjoying for as long as possible.
The second is him feeling that he will not really be learning anything during the A level lessons for maths and FM so it could be time wasted (and therefore could be used for his ‘love of learning’ subjects.

First point is he really sure of his degree preference or is that the ‘sensible’ option due to his aptitude in maths? PPs have given alternatives such as physics and philosophy that may combine more of his enthusiasms and still would allow him to continue into applied mathematics. Imperial have an afternoon a week where students do extra subjects like philosophy or languages (not Latin or history though).

If he is committed to a pure STEM degree then to maintain his broader learning, during the sixth form years he can enter outside humanity essay competitions and the teachers should be able to guide him for that despite him not doing A level. There are very good summer camps for Latin and Greek that are recommended by universities. Lots of extracurricular stuff and clubs should be available for him in and out of school.

Second point, if the school is a top independent school they will have other very talented mathematicians and be very used to teaching and encouraging far more than just the syllabus in the maths /FM lessons. Also normally it would be less teaching time than two slots if they allow 5 A levels. So really he should n’t be bored if he likes maths enough to want to do a degree in it (rather than just being good at it).

Self teaching maths and FM A level would be risky and not give him the time to develop his maths further to the level of other very bright mathematicians admitted to Oxbridge or similar.

Unless he wants to do a degree in computer science or even if he wants to do a degree in computer science, then that would be the subject most fitted to learning outside school time. He could then do maths/FM physics chemistry and one other (at least to start with).

Ds does 4 A levels, but the 4th is Further Maths, so maths, further maths, physics and computer science. There really is no benefit to 4 A levels per se, universities offer on 3 subject grades only. A handful of others are doing 4 A levels (all FM) and only 1 child is doing 5 but I am not sure why.

That means that 5 hours of study per subject so 20 hours but there are also other things on the timetable such as assembly, personal tutor periods and enrichment.

I assume EPQ is timetabled in somewhere but Ds isn't doing it because of his subjects the unis he is looking at won't consider it. He got a 9 in History GCSE and 8 in English Lang so not lacking in essay writing skills.

Lots of A level students would probably love to study a subject further, there are so many resources online to learn from. I listen to podcasts, watch YouTube channels about History you don't need a teacher. Universities, especially American ones, film their lectures, Yale being one of them and they are on YouTube.

So, what are his scores on existing A-Level maths papers?

I have a family member who did this the late eighties ( so old linear style) he got all A in his 7 a-level ( no A* then).
What happened was it left it no time to find himself as a young adult he headed off to Cambridge to do his Maths degree, realised that Maths was not for him luckily was able to change to another degree. But he then by his own admission wafted for years after Uni with a mix of jobs.
In his thirties he discovered his interest - something my family has lots of expertise in.
With hindsight he strongly wishes he had done 3/4 Alevels and had spent time finding out what really interested him and who he was as a person rather than pursuing the pure academic Route.

My dgd is predicted an A* in maths but is no math genius! Fish she didn't even get to kangaroo level! Unis dgd has applied for 3 won't accept further maths as another A level with maths and they won't accept human biology with an A level in biology. She is not going down Kathy route.

New fine apologies for typos. Maths route it should read!

Phone!

lonecatwithkitten is right. For the brightest, free time for exploring subjects and allied interests alone is much more valuable even in the short term than stamp collecting A levels.

Surely the best way to put the 'he knows it all already' issue is to get him to do last years (or the year before if not yet available) A level maths papers under exam conditions. If he gets an A* then he's proven his point. If he gets a C then it is clear he needs more work. Similarly for FM.
Personally I don't see why he doesn't just read up on History or Latin in his free time. It's probably easier to do that than self-teach FM.

Sostenueto what does your granddaughter want to study?

When we were looking at medical schools they made it very clear that they didn't consider maths and further maths as two separate subjects. They will acept them both as long as there are two further subjects, one of them must be chemistry, and the other preferably biology. They don't accept biology and human biology as two separate subjects either as they are too similar.

They want to see a breadth of education. Some universities like to see an arts or humanities subject as the third subject as this does demonstrate a wider education.

Maths and further maths plus physics or economics are fine for engineering, physics or eonomics degrees though.